Eat My Globe

Interview with James Beard Award-Winning Chef and Best-Selling Author,

Rocco DiSpirito

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

When you mention Rocco DiSpirito, you often think of the restaurant, but when I think of Rocco, I think of him being one of the chefs at one of New York's finest restaurants – Lespinasse – under the tutelage of, and I think it was, Gray Kunz. I remember coming over to New York from Britain for a publishing trip in 1994 or ‘95, I think? I was invited to wander around the kitchen. It was the first time I'd been around a fine dining kitchen. And Rocco was one of the first chefs I met. I'm sure he can't remember it. It was nearly 30 years ago. But it meant a lot to me. I then think of him as being very kind to me at Union Pacific and Rocco was on 22nd Street. I ate there on most visits to America. He, he, again, he never knew me, not recognizing me from my brief time at Lespinasse, but he was always very gracious to me when I sat at the bar. I read about his other exploits. To me, he was just a great cook of Italian American food and well just about any of the food you could mention. Also, he's a great cookbook writer, which still carries on now with his wonderful cookbook, Rocco's “Keto Comfort Food Diet: Eat the Foods You Miss and Still Lose Up to a Pound a Day.” 

And now I'm very pleased to say that Rocco is one of my very, very dear friends. Who knew some 30 years ago? I wanted to have Rocco on Eat My Globe for so long. And now that I've planned to talk about Italian American food, who else to ask but one of my dearest friends, ladies and gentlemen, the one and only Rocco DiSpirito. 

How are you, Rocco?

Rocco DiSpirito (“RDS”):

Hey, Simon. If you keep counting the 30 years, we're not going to be friends for long, I can tell you that.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

We have to stop at 20 or 19. We have to pick a number that sounds reasonable. Makes us sound wise. Not too old though.

[Laughter]

But it has been 30 years. You're right. It's been 30 years. Can you imagine?

SM:

I know, and I. . . . Again, I didn't know you then, but you were always really gracious.

RDS:

Thank you. Thank you.

SM:

And then when I got to know you through Guy's Grocery Games and all of that, I was like, oh my gosh, this is Rocco. And, one of the few times I've ever been a bit, I have to say, a bit fan struck, was meeting you. So. . .

RDS:

Wow. Okay.

SM:

So, that was really exciting. But before we go on to talk about Italian-American food, I just want to know what you are doing. You know, I see you on. . . .

RDS:

Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for being such a fan for so long. And as I'm a fan of yours, as you know, and happy that we're friends. You're really a wonderful professional and gentleman, and I'm happy we're doing this podcast. I've been jealously waiting for the invite for a few years now, so.

SM:

Well, you're definitely that. Tell us what you are doing right now and then we'll move on to our question.

RDS:

Sure. Yeah. I'm working on my next book, which is called, “Everyday Delicious.” That's coming out in the spring. Just finishing up layout and recipes and cover design. So, into all that. Working on a couple of popups. I'm still working on all my healthy products. You know, the shake powders and the bread and that sort of stuff. Yeah, and all the stuff I get to do with you.

SM:

Which is fantastic.

RDS:

T O C and, you know, Guy’s Grocery Games. Yeah.

SM:

Yeah. So, T O C I know is a great one, and that's always good when I see you. I don't get to talk to you terribly often because I’m. . .

RDS:

Yeah, no, I know you're very busy. You're very focused on the next setup.

SM:

. . . and I don’t. . . . Myself and Justin, who people know as well. We don't get to talk to too many people the whole way through. We're just kept on our own. . .

RDS:

Yeah. Yeah.

SM:

. . . and we good. But it's always great to see. . .

RDS:

Sequestered, sequestered. You're kept sequestered.

SM:

We are kept. . . .

RDS:

And when we catch you on set, it's for maybe three seconds and you give me that look. Justin gives me that look like we'd love to talk, we'd love to chat, but there's no way we have time or ability to talk to you right now. Yeah.

SM:

Let's get onto the questions because I know how busy you are.

RDS:

Yeah. Sure, sure. I saw it's a wonderful list of questions. I think we could probably shoot a short film if we explored. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

. . . the full answer to every question. Arthur Schwartz wrote a great book about Italian-American cuisine that whoever likes this podcast and listens to it might want to read. He definitely did a deep dive, many, many years of research. He's a famous New York City radio host. Arthur Schwartz. Yeah. W O R. Yeah. Food Talk. And so, to add on to anything that we say today, his book would be a great, great source of information. I hope I have all the answers for you. I only know what I've experienced personally.

SM:

Well, that's what I want. I want your personal experience, you know. There’s. . . . And we can go and talk to Arthur Schwartz. We've done many, many interviews in this. We've done nearly well over a hundred podcasts now, and people know about this. But what I like to do when I interview people is I want to get their experience of food. So, I'm going to ask you these questions, but you tell me which you can answer, which you can't.

RDS:

Sure. Sure.

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

Okay.

SM:

So. . .  what I'm going to start with is something in Britain, which we find odd. But we, as I said, we have our own British Indian cuisine, so we understand a little bit.

RDS:

Yeah, uh-hum.

SM:

Why did Italian food literally take over America? And, because if you go to any restaurant now, even a French restaurant, even a. . . they will always have pasta on the menu. They will always, and so when did. . . why did the Italians first come to America and, kind of, where did they go?

RDS:

So, from my family's recounting of the many stories that led to their immigration here, there are a few things in common, a few things that everybody who immigrated shared, and I think this is true of all immigrants seeking, you know, a better lifestyle, education for children, reliable work, housing, all the sort of things that we take for granted, were hard to find for other people like my parents and grandparents, and many, many millions of immigrants in Europe post-war in Europe, pre-war, of course. And as you know, America welcomed immigrants for, you know, last 150 years with open arms and Italians were a big wave. There were several big waves of Italian immigrants in the 19th century, early 20th century. And they brought with them their knowledge of food, their food traditions, their lifestyle. Because in Italy, you live a, you know, a food lifestyle. It's really not just. . .

[Cross Talk]

SM:

. . . different parts of Italy, these ones or not, or were they all from Sicily?

RDS:

Sorry?

SM:

Did these Italian immigrants who came in, were they all. . .

RDS:

Yes. Yes.

SM:

. . . from different parts of Italy?

RDS:

Mostly from the south of Italy. When I say south, I'm talking about anywhere south of Rome – Rome and Southern and further south. So that would be Naples, obviously, Naples, Avellino, Salerno, Sicily, of course. Puglia. Those are the huge, you know, pools of Italian immigrants came from those areas. And they share, you know, quite a few traditions, not all the traditions, because each region really does have its own very specific cuisine, which is dependent on the microclimate of that region, whether it's seaside or mountainside. And all that will make a big difference in Italy in terms of ingredients that you have, because Italians don't really travel too far for ingredients. If it's growing and available in their local area, that's what they'll work with. So, my parents come from an area where there was a lot of walnuts, for example. So, walnuts are in everything. Eggplant is a big one, sheeps. So, there's lamb in everything. Rabbits were plentiful. So, there's rabbit in everything. And for them, they didn't think, let me travel to another region to get, you know, a cheese from Lombardi, because that just didn't make any sense to them. So, I think they brought that tradition of hyperlocal, of a foodie lifestyle where you're eating your meals today, but you're always planning your meals for tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, you're building out a shopping plan, a gardening plan, a pickling plan. This is everyday life for Italians, right? This is. . . They live a 24 7 food experience. And so, to reproduce all that in America, of course, was pretty difficult because, you know, we didn't have the close proximity to local ingredients. We didn't have the farms. We didn't have the backyards with, you know, wild porcini and asparagus like they did. So, they had to make a lot of adjustments. And I think that's the. . . basically the origin story for what we call sometimes the 21st region of Italy, which is Italian America, you know.

SM:

[Laughter]

So, I mean, tell me about that. You've talked about how the food originated.

RDS:

Sure.

SM:

So, when they got to America, what was the difference between what they expected coming over and presumably they even had to feed themselves on the ship? Because I know ships weren't providing any food in those days. People had to feed themselves.

RDS:

Yeah. Funny you mentioned that. Yeah, my mom would tell me that she would always bring a piece of cheese and a piece of bread. And on the ships, they would often bring that and hard cookies called Taralli, which would last for, you know, decades, essentially.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

Essentially water, flour, yeast, no sugar, no fat. So those are the things that were always in her pocket. And while she didn't tell me a lot about her voyage, other than she took two voyages by ship and then finally by plane, which was a really big deal at the time in the ‘50s for them, that they, you know, usually ate, ate, or lived or had a bed in third class, they would sneak up to first class whenever they could, or second class. My uncle would talk about how he'd put his finest suit on and pretend he was a first-class passenger. So, some funny stories, but I think they basically ate whatever, whatever was available to them. They weren't. . . . At that time, I think they were less picky about food ‘cause, you know, we're talking post World War II Italy, where everything was so scarce.

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

I don't think they had the wherewithal to say, you know, I'm going to eat this and not eat that.

SM:

But so, when they got to America, how. . . . What was the availability of any ingredient, not all their, you know, cheese here and all the lamb here and the rabbit there, which they didn't get? Is that what really defined the Italian-American cooking?

RDS:

Yeah, they spent a lot of time chasing ingredients. I remember this from my childhood, and I remember hearing it from them, you know, going to different boroughs in New York City, going to, you know, far out east on Long Island or north in Connecticut, to find a farmer who had pigeons or who had pheasant, who raised their own pigs, their own sheep. This was a constant, you know, this constant, you know, focus for them to seek out these ingredients. And you're right, it wasn't easy. So, they had to spend a lot of their free time chasing these ingredients and also build into their, you know, American lifestyle, which is basically about work, you know. Mostly about work, build the food lifestyle that they lived in Italy, the Contarino lifestyle, which is like the home farmer lifestyle. So, the minute they had any amount land, they planted lettuces, fruit trees like apples, pears, cherries, blackberries. They planted garlic, peppers, tomatoes. They raised a lot of their own produce and vegetables and preserved it all. They're very serious about preserving. To this day, my grandmother's cantina, the place in the basement that's a little bit cool where she stores her food is filled with jars of preserved, you know, fruits, vegetables, wine, garlic, onions, all hanging, drying and curing. It's pretty interesting. But it did secure a great food supply for them.

SM:

Now, was that true across all kind of Italian people, or was that true just of your parents coming over? Or how. . . By the way. . . .

RDS:

I think it's true for the majority. I think it's true for the majority of Italian immigrants. At least the first generation, I know that everyone who my parents interacted with, whether friends, family or paesano, which is the term we use for anyone who comes from your pae or paese, which is your town, they all had something growing. Whether it was strawberries in a little pot and basil and a little pot on a terrace or a huge garden filled with fresh produce. Everybody was always growing something because that's just a great cheap way to get good local food. You know, when they first came to America, getting local farm fresh food, you know, was practically impossible in the big cities. And I'm sure they tasted some of the food they got at the grocery store and thought, what is this stuff? This is not the food we're used to, you know. And remember back then, Simon, Italian food wasn't imported the way it is now.

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

Wasn't imported to America.

SM:

No. And that was one of my questions because when they got here, they had to. . . A, they had to create. . . .

RDS:

Adapt.

SM:

Yeah. So, when they got here. . . . Can I ask where, without giving any, you know, anything away, obviously, but where did your parents live when you were brought up? I don't know this from you.

RDS:

Yeah, no, they came to New York City. They settled in New York City in one of the boroughs called Queens, and then also Long Island, which is part of the island that Queens is on as well. Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island are on the same island, and two of the boroughs of Manhattan are on that island. So, they settled mostly in Queens, many on Long Island, some in Connecticut, some in Westchester, some in Massachusetts. My parents lived in a place called Jamaica Queens. Really interesting place. Very diverse. Yeah, very diverse. Lots of incredible food experiences.

SM:

Oh yeah. Okay. Because that's interesting. For all the times I've chatted to you, I never figured out where you actually lived.

RDS:

Yeah. And I think, those, those, you know. . . . The complete transformation from, you know, a village with 600 people who, you know, all practically share the same name and same lineage to a place like Jamaica, Queens, where there. . . it's probably the most ethnically diverse area in America, was massively influential on the food. Because I know my mom. I watched her incorporate things she'd see on the street, things, produce that were for sale because, you know, the neighborhood demanded it. Pomegranate, for example, was something that was plentiful in my neighborhood, but my mom had never seen in it in Italy. And she would incorporate these ingredients and sort of continue to adapt and evolve her food. So, it became very much Italian American.

SM:

And that's what I wanted to talk about now, because once they got to America, you know, the ingredients, as I said, they changed. And so, you've talked about pomegranates. What other ingredients did they go, Oh, well, this is. . . it's not similar to what we have in Italy, but it kind of works on that. . . this dish.

RDS:

Yeah. So, one ingredient that we take completely for granted here, that was not plentiful and Italy, and in my mom's area, well, not only because of, it's not natural for chickens to be, it's chickens, right. It's not natural for chickens to be sort of wildly available. You have to cultivate them. But in post-war Italy, cultivating a chicken, you know, was a major investment. So, when family would come over, they'd have this dilemma, and this is something they really debated, whether to kill the chicken or save it for eggs.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

Because if they kill the chicken, they'd have a big feast, but then they would lose their egg producer, right? And this is something they really had to put a lot of time and effort to think about. So, having plentiful, inexpensive chicken was gigantic for them. So, chicken was in everything all of a sudden. And in America, no one would eat rabbit. We lived near a fresh poultry and rabbit butcher shop where you could go buy live poultry, live rabbit, you know, have it sort of prepared, so to speak.

SM:

I love rabbit.

RDS:

And of course, it took one generation for everyone to go no more rabbit. The rabbit eating is over. So, basically, everything that used to have rabbit in it, you know, cacciatore is a famous Italian dish that has typically rabbit that's now made with chicken. So chicken was an ingredient that my mom had to learn how to work in to everyday life. I know, as funny and crazy as that sounds, that was a huge luxury for them. And, you know, it took her 10 years to figure out, you know, how you adapt all her recipes to include chicken ‘cause it does have a slightly different flavor. Some other ones were seafood, you know, shrimp, things like shrimp were virtually unavailable where she's from. I know you think Italy and shrimp plentiful, but not in this small mountain village, you know, on top of, you know, 4,000 feet in the air. They would just never travel to buy something like shrimp. So, shrimp and other shellfish were really big deal. In fact, we'd only reserve them for Christmas and major holidays because they were considered such a luxury and so special and so rare. But on the other hand, lamb was kind of an everyday food, you know. Eating lamb was pretty normal for them.

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

And we'd have lamb quite a lot, you know. And here's another one that no one's going to like – pigeon.

SM:

I love pigeon.

RDS:

Yeah. So, they raised their own pigeons. They raised their own pigeons. We had a pigeon coop until I was 16 years old, and I'm the youngest of three. So yeah, we had a pigeon coop until I was 16, until we could finally convince my parents. It was absolutely horrifying. And no longer wanted on the property. We didn't have a lot of property, but, you know, pigeon coop doesn't take up a lot of space. Also, a rabbit hutch doesn't take up a lot of space. So, they found it very convenient. By the way, I just want to mention, I know you didn't ask about it, but composting was very much a common everyday thing for us.

SM:

Oh, okay.

RDS:

So, I know it's a cool thing now. And a lot of our hippie farmer, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

. . . farm to table friends like to do it, but for them, it's a way of life. There was always a compost heap or container.

SM:

Which is, yeah, it shows you how you've come back to things that we used to do by nature.

RDS:

Right.

SM:

We used to compost. . .

RDS:

Oh, you did? Okay, cool.

SM:

We used, everywhere we went, we would always put it in the compost thing.

RDS:

Right. Right.

SM:

And that was on, we had quite a bit of land, about an acre, so we'd go there and we'd always have a place for it. But for us, it was just not a status thing. It was just. . . . .

RDS:

Normal. It's normal, logical. Right?

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

Yeah. Yeah.

SM:

So, let's talk about these restaurants then. . .

RDS:

Okay. Sure.

SM:

. . . because you've got coming over from America and what you're cooking at home, and that's the beginning of Italian American food because they're trying to find new ingredients, they're finding new ingredients, they're using things like chicken, using all those things. And then let's have a look at when the first restaurants opened and kind of who they were there for. Were they there for, well, I've got one here. I've got one in San Francisco, which I'm told was one of the first in America. But when they started opening them, who were they for and were they for, you know, your parents to go to? Or tell me how they became?

RDS:

Yeah. I think there were essentially two large groups of people that early Italian restaurants catered to. There were the wealthy Americans who could travel to Italy and, you know, for vacation, who would go to the coastal cities during the summer and experience the wonderful bonanza of seafood and pasta and all the beautiful things that you'd find in Florence and Venice and Amalfi. And so there were restaurants that came, restaurateurs that reproduced that experience. And so that would probably be for the, you know, middle to upper class Americans who missed Italy when they weren't on vacation there.

And then there were restaurants that were, I think, made for, you know, the sort of working-class Italian American, of which there are now. . . there were millions pretty early on in the 20th century that on special occasions would go out to restaurants that would never consider going to anything but an Italian restaurant. We never ate in anything but Italian restaurants. Really funny ‘cause we ate Italian food at home, and when there was an event, a birthday, you know, a huge celebration, a wedding, whatever it was, we always went to Italian restaurants and had the same food in Italian restaurants. But it was, you know, considered a luxury and a, you know, a special sort of gift or arrangement for the women who did all the cooking to not have to cook that day, you know. So, I think you ended up with some inexpensive, what we'll call red sauce joints.

SM:

Yeah. I'm going to mention Scopa here because what she's done is she's taking her Italian thing and then bringing it back now as a very, very smart, beautiful restaurant. And so, what I want to know is when you go in and the first thing they do is they serve you some red sauce, was that, was that something everyone looked at and said, well, this is totally different to what we make at home, or how were these. . . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

Tell me about these dishes that they started.

RDS:

So, from my point of view, you know, living with immigrants, first generation immigrants or actual immigrants, and us, the first generation children, they were incredibly innovative and very frugal, always chasing a good deal and always adapting, evolving, pivoting. So, I think because tomatoes and olive oil were one of the first things to be exported from Italy and imported to America, it was the only reliable ingredient, Italian tomatoes in a can, one of the more reliable ingredients, and to this day, very reliable, right? You know if you get Italian D O P tomatoes, they're going to be delicious. There's almost no chance they're going to be anything but delicious.

SM:

I have them here.

RDS:

Yeah, you have them, right. We rely, they're the bedrock of Italian-American cuisine.

SM:

Which is. . . can I just mention to you though, tomatoes used to come. . . were basically Mexican. They came from Mexico. They always came from Lat. . .

RDS:

Right. Yes. Yes.

SM:

And then when they came over to England first and to France and to those areas, people thought they were poisonous.

RDS:

[Laughter]

That's right.

SM:

And because they used to show them on a pewter plate, what happened was the acid from the tomatoes went into the pewter. And so, people thought they were poisonous, but they used them because they had beautiful flowers and all of that.

RDS:

Um-hmm.

SM:

But once they were off the pewter and people began to taste them that's when they thought they were fantastic. And that's when the Italians first went, whoa, these are great. We're going to use them for most of our cooking, or a lot of our cooking there. So, it's very interesting that I've been writing about tomatoes for part of one of my things here. And so, it's really interesting that you think of tomatoes as being the Italian food or one of the Italian foods. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . and yet they didn't come from Italy. Anyway. . .

RDS:

It's a New World food. Yeah. No, I find that incredibly fascinating. Tomatoes, tomatoes, corn, I think.

SM:

Yep.

RDS:

There's probably, probably five or six others that are all New World foods that were discovered in what, 14th, 15th century from the explorers and then brought back to Europe.

SM:

Many, many, many. Chilies.

RDS:

Right.

SM:

Potatoes.

RDS:

Right.

SM:

All of these things that are coming over.

RDS:

The whole nightshade family, right? Pretty much?

SM:

Absolutely. They're all coming over, which is really fantastic. But I didn’t. . . sorry. I thought we’d just. . .

RDS:

No, I think that's, well, that's probably an important part of the story. And another part of this answer was that tomatoes were also the only reliable thing they could find in America that, you know, somewhat approximated Italian ingredients. So, we had reliable tomatoes from Italy, and we also had reliable fresh tomatoes in America. And while they weren't great tomatoes, they certainly behaved as tomatoes when making sauce. So, I think all of these adaptations with sugar and vinegar and many, many spices, dried spices are probably, you know, ways that Italian Americans fixed the flavor of tomatoes in America, because we all know that tomatoes in America are never really ripened fully on the tree.

SM:

Yeah. Yeah.

RDS:

They're shipped thousands of miles.

SM:

Yes.

RDS:

So, if you go to Italy, tomato sauces that I've seen are very simple. There's usually one or two, three ingredients. I've never really experienced a lot of dry herbs. I've never seen sugar or sweeteners or acids being added to sauces there. So, I think that's what Italian Americans had to do here to make these tomatoes taste a little bit like home.

SM:

Interesting. Interesting.

RDS:

And I think if you replicate that for 10 to 15 basic ingredients that they didn't have handy back then, that's how Italian-American cuisine was born. It's just a series of adaptations and pivots and fixes and evolution that turned it into the red sauce cuisine that we know and love. By the way, nothing bad about red sauce cuisine. I love a great chicken parm and spaghetti and meatballs I was raised on. And while neither of those are authentically Italian, they certainly are delicious.

SM:

Well, we're going to talk about some of your favorite, favorite. . .

RDS:

Favorite.

SM:

Italian-American food later. But I did actually, it's a question outside this. I did wonder where Sunday Sauce, I've made it myself quite a few times, but how did Sunday Sauce ever come around?

RDS:

I didn't do the deep dive on this history, but I think from everything I've gathered and gleaned in my life, it's essentially the pot of leftover meats from the week, leftover sauces from the week, anything that will do really well in a long, slow cooked sauce, a long cooked low heat sauce, and that's, you know, almost anything. So, if you have leftover sausages or meatballs or little pieces of pork rib or veal or beef, you chuck it all into a big pot and you cook it for six hours at low temp, it's going to be delicious. And, you know, this is something that you and I take for granted now, but I don't think a lot of people knew this in the early 20th century or, you know, the late 19th century. I don't think a lot of Americans understood that level of cooking, you know, the fine, sort of. . .

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

You know. . . . That's a fine cooking technique, right?

SM:

It is.

RDS:

To be able to simmer something for hours. Yeah. So, most people still can't do it, right?

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

I think that's what it's about.

SM:

Every now and again, and I wonder as well, and you might know whether that was something like people went off Sunday to church and came back and there. . .

RDS:

Oh, yeah. That's probably, yeah, that's probably a good part of the story.

SM:

Yeah. I just. . . I wanted to know, because, you know, you are in that world. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . they say of the Sunday sauce, and I just. . . .

RDS:

Well, if I think back, I will say that, you know, my mom would put the sauce on before church, and she would leave it on the stove, and she would take two tops from tomato cans and use that to create a buffer between the flame and the pot. She would stack them on top of the open burner. . .

SM:

Wow.

RDS:

. . . so that it could safely sit on the stove for the hour or two we'd spend going to church. I do remember her doing that, and she would start it at about six in the morning. So, I'm sure the practicality of letting it cook while you're at church does play into it quite a bit.

SM:

Because yeah, everyone was Catholic and going to. . .

RDS:

Oh, yeah. For sure, for sure.

SM:

I know with my theological background. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . Catholic, Catholic things went very long, shall we say?

[Laughter]

RDS:

For sure. I'll tell you how Catholic we were. My mom wanted me to be a priest more than she wanted me to get married and have children. That's how Catholic we were. I went to a seminary high school in preparation for the major and minor seminary in New York City, which were called Cathedral and Cathedral at Douglaston. And it was only because I misbehaved a little bit that I didn't end up going to the minor seminary first, which is what normal people call college, and that's how Catholic we were. So, church was a very important thing. I was an altar boy for eight years. I often served the masses that I was just referring to. So, yeah, I totally get it. And building a life around church is very common, very, very common for my family and all the Italian descendants.

SM:

So, you are getting that whole Sunday Sauce experience.

RDS:

I also think there's a Sunday luxury. There's a luxury about Sunday because you do get to eat, most of the family comes over. That was true for me. We all gathered at my grandmother's house or my house, and it was, you know, 20, 30 people. So, I think the practicality. . .

SM:

Oh wow.

RDS:

. . . having a big pot of sauce was very important, and then cooking, you know, three to four pounds of pasta and producing a huge meal for 20 people like that. It was very practical and very delicious.

SM:

It sounds fantastic, I have to say. I should mention to people who maybe don't know that I was actually training to be an Anglican priest back in. . . .

RDS:

Right. I knew that.

SM:

Yeah. So, I was. . . . we, we didn't have any of these wonderful things to have. The Anglican church was a little more austere, but we had the same, we had a, like a, we had a Sunday roast when we came back. There was a whole leg of lamb. It was with lots of potatoes and Yorkshire puddings and all of this. So, it was meant to fill you up. So, it's a similar thing, although. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . we probably had about six of our family to not 26, but. . .

RDS:

I'm sure both of our wives are thrilled that it didn't go that way.

SM:

It doesn't go that way. . . .

RDS:

Right, Sybil?

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

But hey. . .

RDS:

Can I ask you about the potatoes?

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

The potatoes. . . The Sunday roast potatoes might be one of the more magical things I've ever eaten.

SM:

Oh, they’re beautiful.

RDS:

Can you just tell me how you do it just so I have it on file?

SM:

No, absolutely, you can. And we'll share this with everyone, because that's the whole point of having my own podcast. We can talk about anything.

RDS:

[Laughter]

Exactly.

SM:

We can talk about anything.

RDS:

I need to take away something. Okay.

SM:

No, no. So, what you do is you get your potatoes. You, usually, depending on the size they're called, I can't remember. They're called gold. No, I can't remember the name of the potatoes back in England, but they're big potatoes. You could. . .

RDS:

Russet. . . Russett? Idaho? Russet? I guess. . . .

SM:

Not anything like Idaho gold or anything potato. I'd have to find them out. I haven't cooked the English potatoes for a while. But you would peel them, cut them in quarters, put them into salted water.

RDS:

Yes.

SM:

You bring them up. . .

RDS:

That's the. . .

SM:

Always, always. And that. . . . You bring them up until the outsides begin to crumble a little bit. That's the key.

RDS:

Okay. Okay.

SM:

The crumbling. You then put them into a baking tray, big baking tray, where you've taken the fat from the lamb, the beef whatever you're going to cook.

RDS:

Right.

SM:

Not the chicken, you'd add some of the lamb fat or the beef fat you've got kept in the fridge. You'd add that in the bit. You'd get that really, really, really hot. Then you would add the potatoes, a bit of salt, little bit of pepper, nothing else. You would shake them up, shake, shake, shake for about two or three minutes, and then put them in the oven, and you would put it on about 450 for a while. . . .

RDS:

Oh, wow. Real high. Okay. Yeah.

SM:

And then just bring it down for about 350 for a while, and that gets this beautiful crunch on the outside. You can tell I'm getting very excited about this.

RDS:

Me too. Me too. I love these potatoes. I love these potatoes.

SM:

They get so crunchy on the outside. . .

RDS:

I would travel to England right now if someone could guarantee me a perfect Sunday roast potato dish.

SM:

Well, all of the. . . It's become a big thing now. All of the pubs, because a lot of the young kids don't have this anymore. So, the thing they do is they go to pubs where they serve a Sunday lunch, and it could be lamb, it could be beef, it could be, I mean, beautiful chicken, they can serve whatever. But usually, it's roast beef or roast lamb, a Yorkshire pudding, which is big and full of gravy. It can be some peas, some carrots, whatever. And it's a massive amount of these roast potatoes, which are gorgeous. And so, they're really crunchy on the outside. Really soft on the inside. And even talking about it now I'm getting full of drool.

RDS:

[Laughter]

Me too. Me too.

SM:

But that’s how you. . .

RDS:

I love these potatoes.

SM:

. . . come out and I will say, and everybody says this, just as I'm sure you would say about your mother's sauce, they always, my mother's roast potatoes were spectacular.

RDS:

Yeah, I believe you.

SM:

And she would bring it out in this big, big roasting pan.

RDS:

Baking dish, right? Yeah.

SM:

On the table.

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

And they were so crunchy and uh.

RDS:

Yes. Yes. That's what I remember is the sort of translucent, almost ceramic like shell. . .

SM:

Yep.

RDS:

. . . with a pearl of powdery fluffy potatoes inside.

SM:

That’s exactly it.

RDS:

And I could never figure out how that was never figured out. You guys did that with one potato. You know, in the same potato.

SM:

All you do is you boil them in salted water until the outsides. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . begin to get a little bit of edge on them.

RDS:

Right. Right.

SM:

And then you pour them, you drain them, absolutely dry them into the pot with lots of, lots of fat. That's the key.

RDS:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't cutting them, not cutting them the right size important. Not too small, right? More on the big side than the small side, right?

SM:

Yeah. Not too small. So, you cut them. . . .

RDS:

So, you don't cook it with the meat, right? That's the mistake I always made.

SM:

No, you can cook it under the meat sometimes if the meat was just on a tray and then it would drop.

They are King Edward potatoes.

RDS:

Ah. Those sound great.

SM:

Okay. I'm going to send you this afterwards because I've got, but that’s. . . I'm going to leave all this in because the joy of this is that. . .

RDS:

Yeah, of course.

SM:

. . . everyone needs to know about food and the food history and that the King Edward. But you can also use Maris Piper, which is another one.

RDS:

Oh, I've never heard of those. Maris Piper?

SM:

Maris Piper or King Edward. Those are the British. . .

RDS:

Okay. Okay.

SM:

. . . potatoes for boiler. But you could use Yukon Gold.

RDS:

Okay, got it. Um-hm.

SM:

Okay. Anyway, let's move back to the, but that's fantastic. That's, see, those are the sort of questions, because you are asking me and we can share it.

RDS:

I agree.

SM:

So, if anyone is listening, I'm very sorry, but this is my show. . .

RDS:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . and that's what we're going to put for them.

[Laughter]

The people who listen to this will always love that. So, those are fantastic.

RDS:

There's not a person in the world who doesn't want perfect roast potatoes. Not a person in the world.

SM:

There is no one. . . . I can't find them in the United States ever unless I make them.

RDS:

I haven't. I haven't either. I've tried to make them a few times. I never get 'em right. I haven't done a lot of things you mentioned though.

SM:

You, yeah, you've got to get the fat.

RDS:

And I think cooking them separate is important ‘cause I've always. . . . What I remember from being with a girlfriend in England whose mom made a great roast potato Sunday roast, she always presented them with the meat in the tray. So, I always assumed they were cooked together, yeah, but I don't think she cooked them together. I think she did what you just said.

SM:

You always, always covered them in some of the fat, which is. . .

RDS:

Right. Right.

SM:

Anyway.

[Laughter]

RDS:

Anyway, we're going to have to eat something really good now.

SM:

I love this. Okay, let's move back to. . .

RDS:

Sure.

I think we're talking about Sunday, Sunday gravy.

SM:

Yeah. I just threw that in. Again, this is the joy of this.

But from that development, you know, we started getting this whole area in New York. Now, the Little Italy, we've started getting that. What about the non kind of Italians going to these, and when did it become, as I said, now when I go to any restaurant, more or less, they're always making a pasta. They're always making whatever. And that's how I wanted to try and see how it became almost, it's become an American meal almost rather than Italian.

RDS:

Yeah. Yeah. So, I think it's probably somewhere in the ‘50s. Certainly, by the ‘70s, pasta had become mainstream.

SM:

Yeah.

RDS:

And I think it's because, you know, got to be in the 8 million Italians came to America in a space of a hundred years, or maybe 50 million, I think, if I'm just remembering numbers now, we'll look up numbers later, but a tremendous amount. And, you know, they're always trying to feed people. So, you know, like my parents were always inviting people over. I used to get annoyed, to be honest with you. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

. . . because my mom would invite the whole neighborhood over every day, every Sunday, every holiday. And, you know, there were times where I just wanted to be with my family ‘cause I had a pretty fun family when we were all together. We were a lot of people, a lot of them thought they were standup comedians, so they were pretty funny.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

And, you know, these people were people who lived life. They, every moment, was a joy, and they drank a lot, and they made their own wine. And they played Scopa, by the way, which is the card game that Antonia's restaurant is named after.

SM:

Oh.

RDS:

It's very loud card game called Scopa, which means to sweep.

SM:

I didn't know that. See, that's brilliant.

RDS:

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it has funny characters on the cards, and the kids never knew what they were. So, we would always, while they were playing, we would always say, Hey, the guy with the club, is that a good card to have? We would always out their cards, because we didn't know what the symbols meant, you know? So, it was basically going behind a guy playing poker and telling everyone what their hand is, you know.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

Scopa was always fun. That was the way that the men ended the night, and it was very loud and very passionate. So, the whole feeling was just always fun and joyful and loud and boisterous and no cares, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, I think Italians were always partying, essentially inviting people over. So, we really shared the culture and the food quickly. And I do think it's inherently delicious. I mean, there's no. . . . Objectively, it's delicious, right?

We can agree with that, right?

SM:

It really is.

RDS:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even though we did not invent tomatoes and we did not invent pasta, we managed to make a dish out of those two ingredients that is pretty insanely delicious, and you know, world class. And I also think the practicality of the, you know, ease of use and how inexpensive it is to buy pasta. Pasta used to be very inexpensive, by the way. People who are listening, pasta was never $6 a pound. It was always 29 cents a pound. Now, pasta is $6 a pound. I just can't believe it sometimes when I see it. Inexpensive pasta now is $3 a pound. But, you know, it used to be the cheapest thing on the shelf. This would be way before most foods were processed as they are now. So, pasta was probably one of the least expensive options. And then canned tomatoes were inexpensive, and certainly local fresh tomatoes were not $10 a pound like they are now. And so, it was easy to make. It was very delicious, and it was inexpensive. And so, when you combine all of those elements, it's bound to become, you know, a national dish at some point, right? I imagine it only takes one generation to turn something, you know, uniquely, you know, village ish into something very, very popular in mainstream.

SM:

Yeah. I always say to people now, and we just go back to England, Chicken Tikka Masala, which actually a British dish was created up in Glasgow, but is now. . .

RDS:

Is that right?

SM:

Oh, yeah. It was.

RDS:

There’s no Indian. . . . There's no Indian. . . .

SM:

It was invented by a Pakistani restaurant owner in. . . .

RDS:

That’s great.

SM:

. . . in Glasgow. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . who created it and then spread it out to his friends who all owned restaurants in Glasgow. . .

RDS:

Wow.

SM:

. . . Glasgow, and then it went out around the world.

RDS:

Wow, it, it's one of my favorite bites of food.

SM:

That is known as the British National Dish now.

RDS:

Wow.

SM:

It’s known as the British National Dish. So, it shows you how. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . an Indian dish. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . an Indian food is very. . . . So that's why I always mention British Indian when I talk of Italian American. It's the same thing.

RDS:

And don't you think Indian culture is very similar, where you're very warm, welcoming, you're always inviting people over. There's room at the table for everybody. You're bound to share that very quickly with that kind of an attitude, right?

SM:

Yeah, I think so. And I think because Indian food is spicy, which British food is not, people loved it. But what I think also comes out of that, they have that way of sharing the British Indian way, which I have in my family as well.

RDS:

And how about the quantities? How about the quantities?

SM:

Oh.

[Laughter]

RDS:

So, we never made anything less than 10 portions ever, you know.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

For my mom, if she wasn't cooking enough for 10 people, it wasn't worth turning on the stove. I imagine Indians feel the same way, right?

SM:

They, they do from all the different states, 27 states, I think. Anyway, they keep on making amazing food. And that's what. . . . I went up to meet the gentleman who cooked the first ever Chicken Tikka Masala.

RDS:

That's cool.

SM:

And Tikka is like a little tandoori piece of chicken, but Tikka Masala is just this sauce. He basically, just as Italian-Americans reached up, he actually reached for a can of Campbell soup and poured it with some spices and poured it over the Chicken Tikka.

RDS:

Wow. Wow.

SM:

That made. . .  ‘Cause he only had this. He had an ulcer.

RDS:

Wow.

SM:

And he poured it over the Chicken Tikka. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . and then they put some spices in all of this. And in fact, I put it on one of Alton Brown's “Good Eats,” and I went up there and cooked, showed him how they cooked it. Anyway, again, we're just. . . .

RDS:

I'm sorry. I have to interrupt you again. You may not remember this, but I asked you for your Chicken Tikka Masala recipe.

SM:

I sent it to you, didn’t I?

RDS:

Yeah, you did. You did. And you shared the secret of the Kashmari, Kashmiri. . .

SM:

Oh, yeah. Which is a. . .

RDS:

. . . spice? The Kashmiri pepper spice, right?

SM:

Yeah. And it's a very mild chili. Very mild. And then you have a hotter one if you want. Yeah. So, for people listening. . .

RDS:

You'll see it in my next book, is what I'm getting to. It's going to be in the next book. I adapted it, but I gave you credit.

SM:

Oh, that's fantastic. What's coming out of this is, you can tell that Rocco and I, like so many people, we love having chats about food. So, we've got all these stories about Italian food and others, but we want to have chats about anything.

RDS:

[Laughter]

SM:

So, if you're listening, no, no. I mean, this is the serious thing that, yes, we're going to talk about this, but, you know, when I talked with Andrew Zimmern, we ended up talking about lots of things apart from him choosing the five restaurants around the world that he loved.

RDS:

That's fun. That's fun.

SM:

Yeah. So, what we're talking about here is Italian-American, but we've got lots of other things that we love to chat about. And this for the people listening at home is kind of what we're like whenever we're on a show together and we get to have dinner together. This is what we're talking about the whole time. So hopefully this is a. . .

RDS:

Very true. Very true.

SM:

. . . thing for people listening to what we're talking about. And this is what we are always chatting about food, just about the whole time. So, I hope people will let us go for this.

Let's talk about some things that we are doing now. We are moving apart. We've got people doing, you know, particular restaurants from particular areas. We've got people doing, oh, we're doing a Rome restaurant here. We're doing an Umbrian restaurant here. We're doing Sicilian here. Which is great because they are doing that. But what I've found as well is that Italian American has come and it is doing its own thing, and it's going, no, no, this is our dish. This is what we did.

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

I've mentioned Scopa, and you did earlier, which I'm seeing as something that America has and you had before. So, I mean, I love the fact that it's all come together and everyone's going, this is American Italian. We love it. Tell us how that happened. Because they're just going, this is an Italian American, but it's ours now. It's an American dish, or it's an American variety.

RDS:

I think it mirrors the immigrant experience, right? So, immigrants go from one country to another. They're usually pretty ashamed of the place they came from. They have children. Those children are ashamed and practice ethnic self-loathing for the first 20 years of their lives. Then, you know, somewhere in their 30s and 40s, they realize what a treasure it is to have parents who come from another place. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

RDS:

. . . especially when you're talking about food in America, because our food inherently in America isn't the greatest. Let's just admit that. And then, you know, there's the epiphany where you say, oh, that stuff my parents have been cooking, and that rabbit hutch and all that, and the composting and all the weird stuff they did, turns out it's awesome. And, you know, I really should have been paying attention. Anyway, that was my experience. And I think that's what America has done with its immigrant culture. We've finally come to the realization that the immigrant culture, along with its food especially, is the best part of who we are, you know, and that we should just own it and not beat up on ourselves because it's not authentic Italian food or authentic Indian food, or whatever authentic even means anymore. It's not authentic, right? We used to focus on, you know, for the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, authenticity. And this is just like the one I had in Venice and Bologna and Florence, and now nobody really cares. We just care about what's delicious.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

And so Italian American food is delicious, right? There's so many delicious dishes. Yeah. Cavatelli with broccoli and sausage and pizza and grandma slice. And I've never seen grandma pie in Italy. Spaghetti meatballs, which I've never seen in Italy. You know, so many things. Chicken parm, eggplant parm, all dishes that don't exist in Italy are just delicious because they make sense here. They made sense to our parents and grandparents in terms of what ingredients they had, the time they had, the cash and bandwidth they had. These are the foods they could produce that were most Italian to them with what they had available to them. And because Italians are always focused on deliciousness and flavor, they ended up producing a lot of delicious, albeit not authentic food. And so, I think, you know, America's just at a point where we're owning who we are instead of wishing we were something else.

SM:

Yeah, I think that's a really well put answer. So, before we finish this, and I've got some other fun questions that are totally not on this subject, but. . .

RDS:

Okay. Does it involve answering questions about favorite colors and things like that?

SM:

No, I don't think so.

RDS:

I hope not. Alright. Alright.

[Laughter]

SM:

Let's say there's five dishes that you love from the American Italian.

RDS:

That’s going to be pretty easy. Pretty easy answer. Yeah.

SM:

So, okay. Well, let's get those five, and then we're going after some fun questions, and then we're going to ask you to talk about where you are on Twitter, blah, blah, blah.

RDS:

So, here are my top five favorite Italian American dishes. Pizza.

SM:

Pizza?

RDS:

Pizza.

SM:

Which. . .?

RDS:

Pizza by the slice, New York style pizza, squares and triangles. Right? That's not something you see in Italy. It's very authentic Italian American.

SM:

You know where I fall on pizza? You know that?

RDS:

I think I do.

SM:

I dislike pizza enormously. No, I do. And when you eat. . .

RDS:

We're going to somehow overcome this and remain friends.

SM:

Well, everyone has tried to do it, so, but if I'm going to have anyone to try and do it, it's going to be Rocco, so that's fine. Okay. But let's go on to number two.

RDS:

Sure. Pizza. Chicken Parmesan.

SM:

Oh, what? I'm number one with you on that. That's amazing.

RDS:

Amazing dish, right? I mean, with any cheese really. Fresh tomatoes. Canned tomatoes. Thick chicken. Flat chicken. Breaded. Not breaded. It's just delicious. Especially if there's a little Parmigiano Reggiano mixed in with the mozzarella and a little basil and some crushed red pepper. Right?

[Laughter]

Delicious.

SM:

You can hear me at the back.

RDS:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

SM:

I'm actually making delicious sounding. . . .

[Laughter]

That is fantastic.

RDS:

Now, here's the dish they do make in Italy for children, but I think it's a great. . . there’s an American affectation of it that is just delicious. Spaghetti with butter and Parmesan Reggiano.

SM:

Oh.

RDS:

Spaghetti with butter and Parmesan Reggiano is insanely delicious, especially if you spend a little time making a beurre fondue, like a melted butter sauce. . .

SM:

Yep.

RDS:

. . . with water, and you work in a lot of Parmesan Reggiano. It's really heaven. Absolute heaven. So that's four, right? Is that 1, 2, 3. Three. Okay.

SM:

No, three.

RDS:

Okay. I got to say meatballs. Meatballs are on the list. They're not number one, but they're on the list. Spaghetti and meatballs. I was raised on it. It's absolutely delicious. And then here's a weird one, but it's the Italian American burger. Okay.

SM:

Oh.

RDS:

It's my mom's. Yeah. So, you're not seeing this everywhere, but there is a version of a burger that Italian moms made for, you know, the entire 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. That was a terrible burger by most standards, but for me was a great experience. She would take American bread and cut off the edges and use a lot of ketchup, and sometimes she would use her leftover tomato sauce. There was always mozzarella involved, never cheddar cheese or white cheddar or anything like that. And it just brings back great memories for me, and you probably not find it on a menu anywhere, but it was a great dish for me growing up.

SM:

Well, I love that because at the end of it, you've got this beautiful dish. You've got things like pizza, which you love and everyone knows, and at the bottom of it, you've got things that you know, and I love that.

This has been the most fabulous conversation because we've gone to India, we've gone to Britain, we've gone to America, Italian America, and everything we've done. So, this has been phenomenal. But I do have just a few other little questions that I always say, these are just going to be some other fun questions that we do are totally different to what we've asked about.

RDS:

Okay.

SM:

Now, if Rocco was a meal, what would it be? It could be any meal you ever want, but it's got to be, it could be a whole meal. It could be one dish, whatever you want it to be. Just tell me what it's going to be.

RDS:

Okay. I hate these questions by the way, and I'm very upset with you for asking me these types of questions.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

But I'm just kidding. I love you. You know that. Okay. It'll have to be a dish I serve on Christmas. It's a dish I serve on Christmas. It's very thin spaghetti with a spicy blue crab tomato sauce. It's a quintessential Christmas Eve dish. It usually evokes moans of pleasure. If it doesn't, you shouldn't be at my next Christmas.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

But usually it's a flavor moment that is so pinnacle life moment. So, it's very memorable. It's rare. It’s special in terms of ingredients and technique, but also made with very simple things.

SM:

Oh, that sounds amazing. Now, if you could go to any meal during history or any point in history, where would it be? Do you want to go to. . .

RDS:

I have a very boring answer to this. I really just want to experience my grandmother's and mother's cooking again. So, I would say take me back to, you know, my grandmother's basement kitchen in the early ‘70s when her garden was in full bloom and she had, you know, ingredients from her, you know, own farming that she so carefully cared for and would make the simplest things like Spaghetti Aglio e Olio or even a frittata. A frittata in my grandmother's hands was, you know, miraculous. So, something like that's where I would love to do something like that. But then, you know, I mean, the Last Supper? The Last Supper would be a great place to have, although I wouldn't want to be there for that awful moment in His life, it would've been nice to see and hear what was going on at that table on that night.

SM:

Well, I think the thing of choosing your grandmother, a lot of people do, but it's always a very different answer.

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

So, I think that's a great one.

Okay. If you could choose any great invention in history, what would it be?

RDS:

I'm going to keep it Italian American theme. This was a major improvement in a, you know, lifelong process that my family experienced. Every end of summer, they would jar hundreds of jars of tomatoes. They would buy bushels of tomatoes, grow tomatoes and jar them, right, which essentially is the same as canning, right? They called it jarring for some reason, and each tomato had to be peeled and cut and seeds separated. And then one year someone showed up with this device that was a hand crank device that you'd put the tomatoes in and would separate the skin, the seeds, and the juice.

SM:

Oh wow.

RDS:

And that just took years off everybody's life. It made it so much easier.

SM:

[Laughter]

RDS:

And it was fun for me. I got to turn the crank sometimes. I got to turn the crank when I was a good kid. And my Uncle Joe was always in charge of all that and he was really fun. And so that for me was a major life-changing moment with a great invention.

SM:

That is the perfect answer.

Rocco, before we leave you, let's just give some people how to get you on Twitter or whatever it's called now, X, or Facebook or Instagram or Threads. Or. . .

RDS:

Yeah.

SM:

I mean, there's so many of 'em now. I'm a bit, but anyway, wherever you are.

RDS:

Sure. So, my website, RoccoDiSpirito.com. And then of course I'm mostly on Instagram at RoccoDiSpirito dot com  and TikTok and Twitter. All at the same handle. Rocco DiSpirito at RoccoDiSpirito.

SM:

Fantastic. I want to say this has been one of the great conversations I've ever had.

RDS:

Thank you. For me too.

SM:

I know that whenever I chat with you, this has been, and I want to say it again to people at home. This has been like chatting with Rocco over a meal. It really has. And when we've had meals at places in LA, we've never had one in New York together, but we've got to do.

RDS:

We need to do that soon.

SM:

But it was fantastic. It was great conversation.

RDS:

Yeah, for me too. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. Theres’s also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Ring sound]

We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.