Eat My Globe

Interview with Award-Winning Chef,

Ming Tsai Part 2

LISTEN TO PART 1 HERE

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (SM”):

TRIGGER WARNING: The following contains discussion about suicide.

I want to talk about Chinese takeout because, you know, if you. . . . It's like if you go to, you know, Britain you have BIR, which is British Indian Restaurant cooking. Totally different from Britain. . . from “proper” Indian food as it was, which is 27. . .

Ming Tsai (“MT”):

Right.

SM:

. . . states and they all have very different food but it's called British Indian Restaurant cooking. And it's something that we now love in England. We adore British Indian Restaurant cooking. We have phaal, which is a very English dish. It's very hot, which I don't love too much. Chicken Tikka Masala is a British dish, all of that. So over here, and it's maybe it's like Italian American, which is this fantastic cuisine on its own, not to do with Italy, but it's of its own. This weekend, we went to, Springfield, Missouri, where you can have the original Cashew Chicken. Yeah, and there's a restaurant we had by Mr. Leong was the first where it was invented. So, what do you think about the Chinese takeout here? Does it have that kind of. . . . It's still really good, I think, sometimes. It's very different from China.

MT:

Yep.

SM:

But it's really good in its own right. What do you think? I mean, because, you know, you're a very special Chinese American chef. What do you think like that? Things like chow mein and General Tso's chicken and orange chicken, is an obvious one, obviously.

MT:

Right. So. I’ve a, I’ve a couple opinions. So, of the best Chinese food, I think. . .

SM:

I bet you do. I bet you do.

[Laughter]

MT:

[Laughter]

I'm going start with the good news. The best Chinese food in this country, in America, are the specialized ones, right? The restaurant that does just Sichuan food and the restaurant that does just Hunan food.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

Because that chef or those chefs came from that province and that's the food they know how to cook and they get better ingredients than they had in China. The meat is fresher, the vegetables are fresher. So, they can make. . .

SM:

Same in England with Indian food. Same in India, England with...

MT:

. . . better. . . . Yeah, right? Exactly. So, they can actually make better Chinese food than in China because the ingredients are better with the same technique, right?

SM:

Yeah exactly.

MT:

The same, the same wok, the same gas, all that. So I can't, I would never go to a restaurant that does all just Chinese food. And you see the ones that does Chinese, Japanese, Thai. What are doing? No, you can't. There's no way you could do Japanese, Thai and Chinese well. You don't have three great chefs at each special. That's so impossible to do. So, definitely. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . avoid those. Look, Panda Express, who’s the elephant in the room, the literally 17-million-pound elephant, has a great purpose.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

At least it’s getting Asian Chinese flavors into Americans’ bellies, right? And it is, for a lot of Americans, delicious. It’s not necessarily healthy for you, right? It's battered protein. . .

SM:

No, it's definitely not.

MT:

. . . that's fried and then coated with this cloyingly sweet. So, I don't eat that stuff. But there is a version of orange chicken. It's not called orange chicken in China, but citrus and chicken that have been, that dish has been sweet and sour, you know, Sanari is called three, two, one. Three vinegar, two soy, one sugar. That's the original sweet and sour sauce, right? That's the, the sweet’s sugar and the sour is vinegar. That, that is sweet and sour. So that did start in China. But then when it came over here, you added, you know, juices and glucose and cornstarch and cloyingly sweet. So, it, it definitely gets bastardized once it got, got here. But would I'd rather eat, would I rather eat Panda Express possibly than, I don't know, fast food? Maybe. If I had to choose my, you know, if I'm gonna go, if I'm go and eat something that's not good for me, I'd rather have probably something like fried and sweet than a double cheeseburger with frozen patties, for example. There is, and I'm going to bring it to you, there is finally some good frozen out there, right? The way, the way meals are now frozen, you can retain the juices and the flavor, and you can keep the sauces different. If you can use an air fryer to keep it crispy. You could actually get some great Asian style food at home without spending a ton of money. Because right now, I mean, I just went to the local Chinese here with my wife and I was. . . $85 for two of us. I'm like, oh my God, it's so expensive. Just Chinese takeout.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

Used to be Chinese takeout, $80 for four of us. Now it's almost double. And, and I don't. . .

SM:

No, it is, it is.

MT:

. . . I couldn't believe that there was, I went to a restaurant once that had a $28 Pad Thai. I'm like, wait a minute guys, this is. This is rice noodles with two shrimp and three pieces of chicken and 20 is but. . . . That's why the restaurant industry is so hard right now, right? You gotta pay 20 plus 25 bucks an hour for the cooks. Chicken is twice as much per pound than it was two years ago, etc, etc, and the customers never going to really want to pay 26 bucks for a Pad Thai. So, it's a real. . . . Right now, we're in a real quandary. It's really hard. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . for a high-end restaurant. You're fine. Right? Because there's plenty of billionaires and French Laundry, Daniel. That's fine. It used to be low end restaurants are fine. McDonald’s and whatnot but now McDonald’s are having problems right because, because it's not cheap anymore.

SM:

Yeah, absolutely.

MT:

I mean you can't. . . . You take a family of four to McDonald’s it's not just 20 bucks although they have the five dollar meal. So there's. . . . We have a real challenge right now. And, and I think more people because it's such a tough economy are cooking more at home but they, they also aren't chefs. They need better ways of being able do it. Hence, I think frozen potentially is a solution for that. Because the HelloFresh is all those great services are really expensive, right? Most people in America can't. It's only $15 per head per night. They can't afford that. They can't spend $60 on food at night if you're a family. It's just too much money.

SM:

No, you, you absolutely can't. I do want to mention here that I made it's. . . . I don't know where it comes from in China, but I made almost like a tangerine chicken. Where I'm not sure where in China, but I was. . . it was a recipe I had to check. Sorry, I can't hear you.

MT:

No, no, no, Simon. You can keep going. No, no, you go.

SM:

If you. . . if you go to China, I've discovered this tangerine chicken when I was there. It was tan. . . and it was very. . . . You put the tangerines out on the pavement or in the yard so they dried, dried, dried. You mix those. You created a tangerine powder. I was taught this by a Chinese chef when I was in China. And he said this is like what we call and I don't know where it was. I can't remember where I was traveling around China. But I made that for my wife and she still goes, well, I prefer Panda Express, sorry.

MT:

Panda Express.

[Laughter]

Can you read this, this is backwards or forwards?

SM:

No, no, Spicy Dan Dan Noodles. Oh, I love Dan Dan Noodles.

MT:

So, I've recently just partnered with Nestle.

SM:

Oh.

MT:

And I'm, I’m producing a whole new series of Asian style frozen foods but authentic. So, like this Dan Dan, this has mala. This has Sichuan peppercorn and chilies and actually is spicy. And it's literally a three-minute nuke in the oven. It's under $5. And this is, this is the way of getting good deliciousness into you without having to break the bank. And, and, and. . .

SM:

What's the name of the... What's the name of...

MT:

We even have, because you know, it's called Mings.

SM:

What, sorry.

MT:

It’s called Mings.

SM:

It's called Ming’s. So let's go and see that if we're in any supermarket that has it. Ming’s is on the back. . . .

MT:

Which we just launched two weeks ago. It’s, it’s. . . .

SM:

Okay, so. . . .

MT:

We're just launching in the Midwest and it's, it’s going to get, in theory, should be national shortly. And we also have stuff like this, like sweet and sour chicken, right? But this is an air fryer. So, all of this, the chicken, the peppers, the fresh pineapple, get air fried crispy. And then the true sweet and sour sauce with fresh pineapple juice and the vinegar and the chili is on the side and you drizzle it on top.

So, this, this is something I'm pretty excited about because I think this is a great way to get good tasty Asian food in you without breaking the bank and without taking an hour to prep because we all work for a living.

SM:

Let's go back to, you know, Chinese food when I've, you know, eaten it in China. So I want to know just five dishes. What are five dishes that are your top five?

MT:

My five favorite Chinese dishes?

SM:

Yeah, that you could mention from every. . .

MT:

Chinese, not, not East-West, Chinese. Right?

SM:

Chinese.

MT:

My favorite dish to eat, to cook, to serve. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . is, is not just Peking duck, it's tea-smoked Peking duck, which I can't wait to. . .

SM:

Ooh.

MT:

. . . serve to you one day. I created this dish, my restaurant's called, “BāBā.” It's in Big Sky, Montana, right, at the Yellowstone Club. And we have these beautiful buracal ovens. And again, through trial and error, I've made Peking duck my entire life. I've made cris. . . . I’ve made tea smoked duck also my entire life. And two different processes, right? One is fried and one of course. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . you dip, you blow up, you hang, you dry, you roast.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

So, and I love Peking duck but my biggest issue, quite often, even at the best ones in Beijing, at Quanjuede, at Dadong, all these original Peking duck places. . .

SM:

Yeah, yeah. Of course I've been there.

MT:

. . . the skin is phenomenal, right? The skin is just, it's so delicious. But sometimes the meat. It's kind of dry and not succulent. It doesn't taste good. Because Peking duck really was created for just the skin, right? The traditional way is Sanchur, Peking duck three ways. They make the soup out of it. They take the meat. They make a stir fry out of it.

SM:

Yep.

MT:

So, they do stuff with it. They buy, I've even had, they fried the bones up and you dipped it and ate the bones in a five spice salt. All delicious. But for me, because I also trained in France is I want the skin crispy and I want the meat. So, I created this technique of first dipping in [indecipherable], get it just like a traditional Peking duck, but the first thing we do the next morning is we cold smoke it. We use black lychee tea and cherry wood and smoke it and that does two things. One, it flavors the meat because again the meat's been, there's five spice salt in the meat and oranges and scallions, right? So, it's getting flavored and then smoking it, but it also dries the skin out even more so than just a fan because you're smoking it. So now when I serve this tea smoked Peking duck, you're eating it for the, and I cut it with the skin and the meat. I don't do skin separate then the meat. I do it because I want it to be one homogeneous bite. So that by far, dish one.

SM:

Okay

MT:

My favorite go-to noodles I just showed to you in my frozen version is the Dan Dan Mian. I love Dan Dan Mian. Real Dan Dan noodles, right? I mean, for those that may not know, mala is the secret. Mala is a citron way of cooking, ma means to numb and that's what citron peppercorns do. It numbs your mouth. . .

SM:

Yep, I love them.

MT:

. . . prepares you to be able to eat spicier. La means spice. Spicy. So, mala is the base of citron peppercorn so you can eat spicier. As you know, Simon, it doesn't necessarily protect you the next day but as you're eating it, it does protect you.

SM:

[Laughter]

No.

MT:

So, you can eat as spicy as you want. I love, I love mala and you've already mentioned it. Hua gua fire pot, right? Hua gua. The Japanese call it shabu shabu, which by far is the best way to eat A5 Kobe or Wagyu anything. Everyone, if you've never had shabu shabu and you want to eat the most beautiful melt-in-your-mouth meat in Japan, it's shabu shabu. Don't get a steak of A5 and sear it. It's just too rich and too much. You don't need that much fat. . .

SM:

Yeah, I agree.

MT:

. . . to eat in a steak of... I, I. . . It's like eating, it’s like eating a lobe. . .

SM:

I agree.

MT:

. . . of foie gras by yourself. Why would you? It’s not. . . . Too much is not, is not good. But hot pot. Because it's the best way to share a meal. We do it all the time at home with my kids, my parents did it all the time. And all you need is, they gave an electrical, you know, they have, now you have induction burners, but just an electrical heating that can boil water. We did chicken stock and water just to make it more flavorful. And you would have everyone around up to eight people with your thing you put your meat in your shrimp in or your fish cakes and listen to the. . .

SM:

Oh.

MT:

. . . noodles and then the veg and then you drink the broth. It's a whole ordeal and I'd love it in restaurants too because at restaurants you could have like spicy mala broth or a kimchi broth and they can have a neutral broth too. And then they just keep bringing up plates and plates of beautifully sliced meats and fish and chicken. It's. . . .

SM:

Oh, ho, ho.

MT:

But even in Beijing. I remember when I was, first time I was in Beijing. I was ten and I went to a communal hot pot restaurant with my dad and it was a gigantic 10-foot diameter hot pot, but everyone had a compartment about this big in front of me, just the two walls. We all shared the same broth, right? And. . . . But this is pre-COVID, but the broth is boiling, so it didn't matter. And we all shared the same broth and we all cooked in it and that was the way they did hot pot restaurants in China. And I probably wouldn't have done well in America sharing the broth with 10 other people. But it's just such a great way to share a meal, right. You literally are cooking together. So that would be. . .

My best...

SM:

What about dumplings?

MT:

I was gonna say, my best dumpling, my best bite is something you may not have heard of. It's in the streets of Taiwan, in Taipei, called goubuli baozi. Goubuli. Go is dog, right? This is not a dog dumpling. But the name of the dumpling, it's shaped like a hockey puck and about this thick. Right, so it looks like a hockey puck. It's hot water dough like a pot sticker dough. And it's pan-seared on both sides with the juiciest pork in the world. So when you bite into it, it's like a soup dumpling with all that juice, but it's crispy on the outside because of the way they cook it. And goubuli baozi, it literally translates means not even a dog would eat these baos. So goubuli, that's a goubuli – not even a dog would touch it – bao. So not the greatest marketing name for something you want to sell, but my grandpa used to take us to these places. You used to get, I think it was like five for a dollar. I mean, it was so cheap back then. But that was by far the best dumpling ever. Goubuli baozi.

SM:

Oh. You're making me feel so hungry. I mean, seriously, I think of anyone I've ever had on this show, you are making me feel so hungry. I think we might have to get some Szechuan food in this afternoon.

MT:

Yeah, you know, don't, don’t threaten me with a good meal, Simon.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

I would think the fifth one, I, I, I think the way the Chinese cook whole fish is the simplest, most perfect way when you have a beautiful. . .  if you have a beautiful fresh fish. . . steaming the fish whole. Just with ginger and scallion and then flash with a hot peanut oil for the cheeks, right. My mom used to fight for the cheeks, the head, the eyeballs. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

MT:

. . . and the tail. They didn’t care about, and my grandma and mom would fight. You got the tail, I got the head. You get the head, I get the tail.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

And, but it was always a discussion. But I’ve never had a better bite of fish that’s more succulent and it’s just. . . and you can taste the fish. All of the fish, because it's just lightly. . .  Again, ginger, it's got a little bit of soy sauce, and then the peanut oil. It's the most simplest way. . . . And for the record, I say this all the time when I do my new style sashimi. New style sashimi, popularized by Nobu Matsuhisa, right? When he opened Matsuhisa in. . .

SM:

Yeah, yeah.

MT:

. . . La Cienega 45 years ago, he tells me, Nobu told me the story. He would have all these LA ladies come in, oh I don't eat raw fish. He's like, please sit down. Let me do something for you. And he started flashing his sashimi with hot olive oil. And they're like, oh this isn't raw. It's still raw, right? But in their heads, it's cooked and people loved it. That's creating new style sashimi. For the record, he stole that idea from the Chinese. We've been flashing fish. Yeah, great, it was steamed fish, but we've been flashing fish for 2000 years. So, I kind of stole it back because I do new style sashimi. I always credit him because I had it first time with him. But I mean, I love cooking fish of all sorts, but I think when you steam it like that, it's just, it's the way to show the fish off the best.

SM:

Oh. And let's finish this with you talking about your, your books and your time on TV and your. . . . The thing that I always say about you is your, your very what's the word I was looking for. You're very philanthropic as well.

MT:

Yep.

SM:

You're very philanthropic. So, you're always reaching out to people who, you know, you I think you did the food allergy and anaphylactic networkers. You've done all kinds of people. You do Family Reach. I think I don't know whether you're still doing that now.

MT:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can talk about that a little bit.

SM:

But all these things. No, no, absolutely. So what. . . .

MT:

Thank you for giving me the opportunity. So, first of all, no one touches Jose Andres. Jose Andres is the hero of all hero chefs, right?

SM:

Of course he is, of course he is. Yeah, he really is.

MT:

I mean he’s literally feeding the world. I mean, he is. . . . I’ve known Jose my entire life and, and, if anyone deserves the Nobel Peace Prize, it’s Jose. And I think he will get the opportunity.

SM:

Of course he does, absolutely.

MT:

Cuz he literally. . . . And his formula is so good. Every chef in the world is a potential “World Central Kitchen” chef. Because wherever the disaster is, there are some restaurants not affected and some aren't. So, he just figures the ones that aren't affected, funds them so they can stay open and operating and then start feeding FEMA, police, fire, all that. I mean, it’s. . . Jose's amazing. I've done a lot of stuff with him. It’s, it’s. . . . There's nothing more heartwarming when you go to disaster and you're cooking for these people that literally have lost everything.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

I was, I was in the Bahamas after that horrible one. And literally, it was just. . . . Abaco was wiped out. It was just no. . . It was just wiped out. And these kids, just to get water and a plate of rice and beans, there's nothing, there’s nothing more powerful than the ability. . . . I just said it earlier, make people happy through food. That's fantastic. Just to get people food so they can live. I mean, that's the most basic, basic premise, right? And that's why World Central Kitchen is amazing. So, what I've done, so I help Jose as much as I can.

And as a side note, I'm also very proud to be of Team USA of “Mentor,” the organization that Thomas Keller, Daniel Boulud, and Jerome Bocuse started. That's our fundraising arm for Team USA to compete in the Bocuse d’Or. So that for culinary is something I'm very fond of because I think, again, France with Paul Bocuse, Mr. Paul, who really wanted to bring the best chefs in the world together, I, I wholly support that.

But my main philanthropic work is this great foundation called, “Family Reach.” I've been with them 13 years. We're the only national charity that financially helps families dealing with cancer. Right now, in America, a cancer diagnosis to the family is the number one reason of personal bankruptcy. Think about that.

SM:

Yeah, oh absolutely. Trust me, I know. I know.

MT:

If you have two kids, you know, you have money, I have money, my wife had this, and I can't imagine all the stuff I've been buying on Amazon all the time. And if I had to think about, like we can't afford it, it'd be just unbelievable. So, Family Reach, through food, I created an event called, “Cooking Live,” and I've done it 24 times all over the country. I bring the best chefs in each city. I was in Chicago with Stephanie Izard and Grant Achatz and Takashi, and New York, you know, New York we had, Rocco and Todd English, and all these guys. So, all the great chefs. We get them in a room, we cook live, meaning we plate and cook, do a demo like TV, because everyone on TV, the comment's like, wish I could eat that.

Well, here you actually get to see it on TV screens being made and then you get to eat it. And I have proudly raised, Simon, over $13 million for Family Reach over the last 13 years. And I meet these families and I see these kids and I hug these kids and I know I helped keep these guys out of the homeless shelter, literally in their homes and now they're in remission. And again, like what Jose does, we have a platform to be able to do something and give back.

And there's nothing more basic than food. And if you can, and food of course is also the best magnet to great to bring people together. So, the fact that we can through food, not only raise money, but help families and hopefully get them through cancer or get them through the disaster. That's the power of food, which is why all of us chefs, I can speak for every chef. That's why we're so happy that we're chefs because we have a platform. We can always cook for someone else. We always have the skill set for the rest of our lives to help other people. Which is just a really humble place to be.

SM:

Okay, so just before we go on to some fun questions from me to you, let's, let's just talk about how you got to television and how you started to do – what's it now five or? I don't know how many books you've written now.

MT:

Five. I'm working on a sixth one.

So yeah, so I've written five books and they're, you know, as you've seen, they're how-to books to get people to cook, you know, delicious food easily at home. The book that I'm. . . working title is “Happy Chef” is my next one. And that's a whole. . .

SM:

Oh, okay.

MT:

. . . that's a book, it’s somewhat memoirs, but just, I've been blessed. I’ve been very happy cooking, but I also think there's a whole, my newest philanthropic, and I just was at with my friend Harris Schwartzberg yesterday is about mental health. Because mental illness in this world, in this country is rampant. It's pandemic.

SM:

Oh no, it really is.

MT:

And fortunately, people are starting to talk about it more. I mean, people are talking about it more. Thank God it's no longer embarrassing to talk about it. But specifically in the chef world, in our industry, I mean, there's so much mental illness, right?

SM:

Oh yeah, trust me.

MT:

And there's so much, there's drugs and alcohol as well, which doesn't help, right? And anyway, I think that's something that. . . . The only thing I say right now is if you know anyone that has anxiety or depression or suffering, talk to them. You will regret it if you don't. That's all we can do. I'm not a doctor. I'm not qualified, but I can still talk and see how you're doing. And us men, we're the worst. It's four times more suicides – men than women, right?

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

Because we always say, we're good. We're good. We're fine. Because we're men. We're good. And that's what every man says. Of course, we're good, right? I'm the head of household. I have to be good, right? And that. . . . But they're not. And I've had two friends kill themselves, right? So, it's a real issue.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

And that's my next, the whole thing with happy cooking is a program I developed and I'll go quickly, 30 seconds on this. Imagine a cooking class.

SM:

Yeah, no please.

MT:

Imagine 40, 40 students, right? These are people that are dealing with anxiety and depression because every high schooler and college kid right now, if you're beautiful and can sing and dance, you're fine. If you're a brainiac with a 4.2 GPA, you're also fine. If you're a star athlete, you're also fine. But at least 65 % of the student body, they're in the middle. They're not good enough to make varsity. They're not pretty enough to do this. They can't have rhythm. They can't sing. So, they don't know what they want to do. They don't know where they're going to go to college or worse. They don't know what they're going to do after college. And then you add some drugs and alcohol and they get depression, maybe a broken household, whatever it is. Mental disease. And my idea with happy cooking is bring these 40 people, a couple of therapists to make sure everything goes well. But everyone on the first day makes a chocolate chip cookie.

You get your. . . . Here are your knives, here's your hat, it's a one-month program. There's also sauce and economic issues which I'll touch on in the end. Everyone makes a chocolate chip cookie. Then they bite, they try it. Then they realize that, wait a minute, I just made something that I made that actually tastes good. So, I'm not completely useless. I, I, I shouldn't have zero self-worth. I actually have a reason to be here. And then you take this basket of cookies and you go out into the world and you start giving it to strangers and they start smiling. Then you're like, wait a minute. I just made someone happy through something I made? Okay, maybe this is something I could actually do. Because as you know, Simon, you don't need talent to be a great chef. You just need a hand. You don't even need two hands. I know there's a chef that has one hand who's a great chef. You just need to have. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . you don't need rhythm, you don't need anything. You just need to able to stand and you need to be able to work hard. And for those that are in this program that started getting the passion for cooking, they could be a great chef, easily one, day. Because the way the chef world works, right now COVID took out over a million cooks in our country, right?

SM:

Oh yeah. Yeah.

MT:

We need people, we don't need amazing chefs right now. We need cooks. We need people that can prep. So, after a month program that you get into it, you know that this is something I can do and it's tactile. You just made a quiche and you tried it. It's delicious. It's tactile. It's not like, it's not even like a writing a song or a piece of art. You gotta wait for the reaction a year from now. This is the plate comes back empty, the plate comes back clean, right? It's so immediate gratification, which is what people need when they're depressed and having anxiety. And this is something like Jose's formula. Every chef in this country can be a happy cooking chef too, right? They can do it in LA at this program. They could do it there. We could do it at Johnson and Wales and CIA, but gets people into a workforce, but more importantly, it gets people thinking they're not useless, because no one in this country is useless. Everyone has a purpose. They just got to find it. And I was lucky. It was like, because I was Chinese, if you're Mexican or you're Jewish, you're going to be have food, food, food, food, food. And it's easy to become a chef, because you're just surrounded by food. Not everyone has that. But if you actually think about, wait a minute, I could do something that can make me happy and someone else happy. That's a great job. So that's something I really want to get into.

SM:

You are. . .

MT:

Sorry, sorry, I just like that. So, that's, that's my sixth book.

SM:     

No, no, no. You- you don't-

MT:

Good.

SM:

You don't ever, ever have to be sorry on this podcast.

MT:

Thank you.

SM:

This is all about what you want to do and we've done some history and but I want to know about who you are and your history and. . .

MT:

Right? But wouldn't that, but doesn't that resonate with you Simon? Doesn't that just like, wow, that would actually work.

SM:

Oh of course it does. I, you know. . . .

MT:

That would actually, that could actually work.

SM:

It absolutely does work.

And then before I can ask you some fun questions, tell us about TV and how you. . .

MT:

Oh TV, yeah.

SM:

. . . got to know, because I know that's how people are going to know you at the first. . .

MT:

So I tell you, 1995, 1995, there was a show in Food Network called Dining Around, Nina Griscom and Alan Richman, who were the first. . . . They did three chefs in half an hour. It turned out to be their talent search show, because at that moment, they just had med roll, How to Boil Water, and I think maybe Mario and Bobby were just starting, but they didn't have enough chefs, right? They needed more chefs. I didn't know that.

I was in Santa Fe and I remember the first thing I ever said on TV, because I'm kind of sarcastic and I try to be funny, as you know. I remember looking at the camera lens and I say, hey, I'm Ming Tsai, I was born Chinese, I'm still Chinese, and today I'm gonna cook some lamb. And the producer actually kind of, it wasn't that funny, but the producer's like, wow, you actually try to be funny, which is a lot more than most chefs back then, like, hi, I'm Ming Tsai, I wanna cook lamb, which is because we all were bad. We're cooks, we weren't TV people.

But I didn't mind being on TV, right? That's my personality. I always like the limelight. So, I, I knew to ham it up. So, I did that. And because, because I made that joke, it says, come back and do Ready Say Cook. So that was a [indecipherable] bigger show. I went up with Susur Lee, my buddy. He was one of the best Asian chefs in this world.

SM:

Yeah, of course.

MT:

And we actually tied. He won two, I won two, and we split it 45-45 down the middle, which was perfect because we're both Chinese and we didn't want to lose space, but we're great friends and we didn't want to beat the other guy. So, the time was perfect. But I also knew at Ready Say Cook that this is, the producers looking at me, hamming up. So, I was throwing tomatoes out to the audience. I was doing more than just cooking. I was trying to do what I did, be a personality. And then from that, I started doing Chef Du Jour and then Sarah's Show and then I became their Asian expert. Martin already had, Martin was already on PBS doing his thing. And so Chinese New Year rolled around. I did my Asian, I did a truffle bao, a new world, wild mushroom truffle bao.

SM:

Wow.

MT:

And I was with David Rosengarten. And then Marilyn O'Reilly, the exec producer of all these shows, like, listen, go get some media training. There's this guy named Lou Epis in Massachusetts, where I live, two days. It was like three or $5,000. was so much money for me back then. I mean, it's still a lot of money now, but back then that was half of our net worth practically. But my wife, who was making more money being a nurse, is like, look, I do think that this could be a career for you. So yeah, I'm going to support that. So, she, she coughed up the money and I did the media training and then, basically, that's how I got East Meets West. And, and proudly, the very first show I did was a turkey shumai chipotle show, and I did like a three pea fried rice, it’s a turkey show. I took turkey and did two ways. That was a show that they submitted to the Emmys. The first show of an 80s show series, my first show on TV, they submit that and my agent called me and says, congrats, you've been nominated for an Emmy. I'm like, what are you talking about?

SM:

Wow.

MT:

He goes, yeah. He goes, who else? I go, Julia and Bob Vila, and Martha Stewart and Bill Nye, the science guy. I'm like, it's nice to be nominated. And by some miracle, maybe they had an Asian quota or something. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

. . . I win the Emmy. I won the Food Network's first Emmy. So, I'm very proud of that. And they've won hundreds of Emmys since then. But that's what it started. Then after East Meets West, did many, many years of that, then I started doing Ming's Quest. Loved Ming's Quest. David was only one year old, two years old, so I still worked. I was traveling a lot, traveling, you know, 100 plus days of the road doing that. And then the last Ming's Quest was in Bali. We were there when 9-11 happened.

SM:

Oh my gosh.

MT:

And we were in Indonesia. So, we're like, we need to get out of dodge here, because we didn't know what was going on. Then seven days later, through Taiwan, through Canada, I get home. And then we stop. And that's my wife's like, you're not doing Ming's Quest anymore. I mean, the world was different, right? That was crazy.

SM:

Wow.

MT:

And, so yeah, so that's how it started. I did Simply Ming for 19 years and I love doing Simply Ming and I'm gonna bring a version of that back, hopefully by next year. COVID happened, I did a little bit of it and then I started doing Ming's Bing. So now I'm gonna have a little bit more free time and I'm gonna figure out exactly what the next one is. I still love discovering and traveling and that is still in my bones, right? And there's so much great food out there that I still need to try.

SM:

Well, I know you, I know you always do and you know, I love travel, you know, we've been to 100 countries and we're always traveling. So, I get that I really do get that. Okay, though.

Now, let's just talk about some other fun questions. Okay, so let's think of this. If Ming was a meal what would it be?

MT:

It would have to be a degustation, it would to be a tasting meal, it would have to be many courses.

SM:

Oooh.

MT:

And, and I think I would have to show, the meal would have to show all the taste. You'd have to have a salty, a sweet, a sour. Of course, you need the fifth sensa. . . fifth taste sensation after sweet, salty, sour, bitter. The fifth is umami, as you know. So, umami is the depth of flavor. So you. . . so, that would be a dish for dried shiitakes, and parmesan, and whatnot. And the sixth dish would have kokumi. Kokumi is the sixth ta. . . sixth taste sensation you may not know about, Simon. Discovered in Japan, which is umami with fat. So, kokumi actually lingers even longer, in your, in your palate, in your throat, in your [indecipherable]. So, think braised shiitake oxtails. So that's umami-based, super savory, but with the fat, it lingers. So, that, I'd have to have six dishes that would touch on each one of those. That would be eating Ming.

SM:

Fantastic, okay. If Ming had to go back in time to any meal where would that be?

MT:

If I, if I could go back in time right now, I wish I was with my grandfather on the streets of Taipei, because he would grab my hand, we'd go to a place called Ximending, which is a concrete open space, kind like Singapore has like noon circus, but this is like two or three stories concrete food hall, and literally you'd walk, and everyone knew my grandfather, because he was a businessman in Taiwan, and they would literally grab your hand to put you in a plastic chair, and then scallion pancakes would be in front of you before you could say no. So, then they made a sale. And it was the best scallion pancakes, goubli baozis, the pot stickers you could ever have for 10 cents a bite. I mean, the price was just so. . . . I'm talking about. . .

SM:

Oh.

MT:

. . . 50 years ago, right? And that street food, the crispiest, most delicate scallion pancakes for like 10 cents. That, I wish I could go back there, especially with grandpa. Yeah, yeah, we just, right, and he, he was the man of the streets and he loved to eat and he loved showing me off because I loved to eat. And I used to have a hot sambal, la jiao eating contest. I would always try to eat more sambal, more la jiao than my grandfather. And I'm talking about I'm six and eight and 10 and you know, he'd always try to show me off how much I could eat.

SM:

Oh.

MT:

And he, he in his retirement, he and grandma in Dayton, Ohio, they came to be close to one of their four sons. My dad was, I think, their favorite son because they came to live with them. My dad took care of them the best. And they learned how to cook. They, they had cooks in Taiwan, right? So, they never really learned how to cook. They loved great food. But then they started learning how to cook from scratch. They started growing their own cucumbers. They made their own chili, the sambal. He made their own hot sauce. And then he learned how to make noodles. Then he learned how to pull noodles. Then they started doing pan scallion dumplings. Like Friday night at 5 p.m., going to grandparents was my favorite time of the week, every week in Dayton, Ohio. And my brother hated it. My brother's a little bit older. He wanted to go out, go drinking, meet the guys. I'm like, you kidding me? We're going to go to Grandpa's for freaking mahjong, mahjong and dumplings. There's nothing better. Nothing.

SM:

Oh. that's fantastic. One more question before we ask you to. . . . If Ming had to go back in time to see the invention of anything what would it be?

MT:

I mean, I, I think by far the best invention for us has been travel, the airplane. Without the airplane, we wouldn't have seen all of these countries. You’re not, I'm not going across the Atlantic and Pacific any time soon on a boat, right? The airplane. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

. . . has made this globe, this globe one, one, one place, right. Because now you can get anywhere in a day. And, and because of that, you get to discover all the wonderful culture, flavors, people of those countries. And I, and I don't think, I don’t think there's a better way to educate our, the next generation, our children, than to take them wherever you can around the world, or at least around the country, right? You need to see how other people live. Because once you do that, you start appreciating everything you actually have yourself. And then you also start realizing what I can do to actually make their living better because that's how this globe should work. This, this place, this country is so divisive right now. We don't have another five hours to talk about this, Simon. But if everyone could just sit back and take a breath and just really look in the mirror like what do you, what kind of world do you want for your kids, right? I mean, you don't wanna say sorry we had this world because I made these bad choices and these people ran it and everyone's mean and everyone has guns and everyone is racist. That's a world we could live in and half this world kind of lives like that now. But that's not the world I want to live in nor do I want my kids to live in and their kids. And we have, you, me, mature adults have the ability to help, guide, coach the right way. And I'm not talking about politics. I'm just talking about being kind, being good. . .

SM:

Yep, absolutely.

MT:

. . . to your fellow human being of any skin color, of any ethnicity, of any gender. It doesn't matter. Oh my God. Just share a bowl of rice or break some bread, especially the people you don't agree with, because we're never going to get out of this. The wall has been built.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

And, and no one, and people won't even talk right now. It's so divisive. We've got to get over that because we don't. We're going to have an incredibly horrible world moving forward and we can't. I'm, I’m not going to stand for that.

SM:

I know that when you know, and I don't think we should ever talk about ever get away from that. Yeah, we went to the ‘stans, Uzbekistan, all of those. . . last. . . and they're, you know, Russian built. And when you go and see them there, but the people there are so kind, so kind. And yet you go there and go, well, who are these? And anyway.

So finally, and this has been, I just want to say, this has been easily, easily one of the best interviews I've ever done. You have so much to talk about. You have so much stories to tell about. You have so much. . . You have so, I mean, it's just great. It really is. So, I want people to see your social media sites so they know where else to find you because I know you'll share it there. So please what are your social media sites?

MT:

Yep. So yeah, I mean, TikTok and Instagram are my, are my two biggest. So, both are Ming Tsai.

SM:

So would you like to spell that?

MT:

Yeah, M-I-N-G-T-S-A-I. And, so, so that's for, for Instagram. And TikTok is Chef Ming Tsai. So, Chef Ming Tsai for TikTok. And I love, I love. . . . The great parts about social media like TikTok and Instagram is, I still get to teach, right? I'm showing people how to do a dish. And, and I still, that's, that’s why I love being a chef, right? I love showing people how to do something easier or a quick hack or whatever it is. And I have fun with it. I mean, I love the banter. I did my first TikTok, I made fried rice. Very simple, right? But I did the very controversial technique of using hot, fresh rice, which is how I learned watching Din Tai Fung chefs make their fried rice. Because Din Tai Fung. . .

SM:

They're really good.

MT:

. . . has by far the best fried rice in the world. And I'm watching through their glass. And they're not using leftover cold rice. And I know that's how fried rice was created, which is what all the comments, Chef, you know fried rice is good. I do know that, how to use up leftover fried rice. But if you want fluffy, hot, delicious, singular grain fried rice, use hot, fresh. And it's. . . . First of all, it's so much faster because the rice starts hot. And it's delicious. But because of the controversy, and there was Mr. Roger, what are you gonna say, Mr. Roger, and all this. Six million people commented on it. It was just absurd, but that's the power of social media. And, and I love the fact that there are. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

. . . six million people that like fried rice. Some agree with the way I cooked it and some didn't. But what a great banter. That's what this country. . .  

SM:

I know.

MT:

. . . and this world needs to be talking about. If we just talked about fried rice, we would have a lot less problems in this world. Let's just talk about food.

SM:

Yeah, I went, I went to the very first Din Tai Fung in Taiwan.

MT:

In Taipei, yeah.

SM:

Taipei. And they gave us the... we had the very... it was a... what was it? Foie Gras dumpling. And it was so fantastic.

MT:

They did a foie gras dumpling? They did a truffle. They do a truffle soup dumpling.

SM:

They had it... yeah, they... no, a truffle dumpling, you're right, a truffle dumpling.

MT:

There's a truffle stand. They're truffles. I was gonna mention that for everyone listening. Because you can't go to Taiwan and get a goubli baozi anytime soon. But if you live in America, go to Din Tai Fung. And I don't work with these guys, guys. I just love this. It's the best restaurant chain, Chinese chain in the world. And they. . .

SM:

It is. It is.

MT:

. . . do exactly that, Simon. They have a truffle soup dumpling. It's 25 bucks for like eight of ‘em, but it's worth every single penny. It's by far the best dumpling commercially you can buy at a restaurant today in America. Bar none.

SM:

We went to see them in Century City recently and. . .

MT:

Yep, I've been there. Yep.

SM:

. . . we had lunch with them and they were, well, not with them, for us, the two of us, and they were abs. . . . Everything was perfect. And so I love what they do. yeah.

MT:

It's perfect. Their cucumber salad, that's perfect cucumbers. Everything is perfect. It's just, and they just opened in New York. I can't imagine how busy they are in New York. I mean they must be crushing it there.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

It's, it's incredible. I mean you see that you see the art. You see them making those soup dumplings. It's unbelievable how talented they are.

SM:

Yeah, they're beautiful. Well, Ming, this has been absolutely a blast for me because I've wanted you. . .

MT:

Same.

SM:

. . . to be on and we've been running around trying to get you, well, not you, but just us trying to get it. So, I'm going to say thank you to you for coming on and I hope you have enjoyed being on Eat My Globe. . .

MT:

100%.

SM:

. . . as much as I have because quite frankly why I do this show is for me. I don't do it for anyone else, but I get a lot of people. . .

MT:

[Laughter]

I love it.

SM:

. . . listening to it. But I just do it so I could have a great conversation with the people I love and with scholars and with I have, you know, one of the historians from Yale come on and he's an amazing guy, Paul Freedman, and I just it's all about me really.

MT:

[Laughter]

SM:

So, but then we, but it works and then we put it out to everybody and then they're very, they love listening to it. So. I'm just going to get the. . . . So, I want to say thank you again for being on because it's been fantastic. It really has.

MT:

Yeah. And Simon, please, thank, thank you for doing Eat My Globe. I think it's a fantastic platform. And, and like most of us chefs, we love telling our story. And then if we can get any information out there to help, that's even better. So, hats off to you for doing this. And I've so enjoyed our friendship, Simon, over the years. And I know that's gonna continue. And we gotta go back and get some more fish and chips in London sometime soon.

[Laughter]

SM

Oh.

MT:

Because that's what my. . . . Henry's like, we go back and get some fish and chips. And guess we can. But we gotta call Simon first.

SM:

That’s fantastic.

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OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

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We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.