Eat My Globe

Interview with James Beard Award Winning Authors and Chefs,

Lois Ellen Frank and Walter Whitewater

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everybody, I'm Simon Majumdar, host of Eat My Globe, a podcast about things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And on today's very special episode, we have the good fortune to bring in two people whose talks I’ve attended in Santa Fe, New Mexico. They were so enthralling and fascinating that I wanted to have them on the show to discuss food from the First Nations of the Southwest and the future of Native American cuisine. I know that you'll find it just as fascinating. Chef Lois Ellen Frank, PhD, will talk about her first book, Food of the Southwest Indian Nations, which won a James Beard Award in 2002. Her latest book, Seed to Plate, Soil to Sky, is one of my go-to books for both its amazing history and its terrific recipes. In addition to being an award-winning author, she's a photographer, chef, historian, cultural anthropologist, and co-proprietor of Red Mesa Cuisine.

Chef Walter Whitewater is a co-proprietor of Red Mesa Cuisine and is also a James Beard Award winner as he was the culinary advisor on the book, Foods from Southwestern Indian Nations. He is also a culinary advisor on Seed to Plate, Soil to Sky. He also has the distinction of the first Native American chef to cook at the James Beard house. He also won a James Lewis Award in 2008 from BCS Global. Both chefs have appeared on a number of shows on the Food Network. Welcome to Eat My Globe.

Do you want to talk about what you're working on right now? Because I know whenever I've seen you since then, you're always such busy people. So, would you like to tell us what you're working on right now? Both sides?

Lois Ellen Frank (“LEF”):

Sure. Thank you for having us. And we're working on quite a few different things. We are working with different private catering events and we have some educational events coming up throughout the upcoming months. And I've been teaching.

Walter's been coming to our classes at the Institute of American Indian Arts. I have nine Native American students from all over the United States, different tribal affiliations, and we do some reading as well as hands-on component. And we teach about once a month at the Santa Fe School of Cooking. We've been working directly with different tribes and pueblos on health and wellness. I like to say re-indigenizing, reclaiming, revitalizing. My students laugh because I use the re-word. We like the re-word for health and wellness.

SM:

Fantastic. What about you, Walter?

Walter Whitewater (“WW”):

Well, I'm just tagging along with what Lois has been giving and mostly I do a lot of the background and the cooking and the flavor and how it will look and just presenting to, to lot of ideas to my own Native people and then throughout and other non-Native too. So that's, it's always good to work with, working with kids. It's very important that we try to carry on the ways what was given to me and kind of working through the ceremony to helping changing the diet and introducing, bring into the ceremony and the healthier way of eating. And it's just a big, huge surprise that we've seen, you know, and because they never taste some type of what we cook and we brought it into the circle and they're eating that, it's like, wow, you know, that's a reward that I've been hearing and then people have always been talking about it. That's where we're at right now.

SM:

That's fantastic. And that actually takes me into the next question. Can I ask you what makes each kind of First Nation different in food and then what makes them similar? Because there are some things I've heard when I went down to speak with the Wampanoag Nation there, and then some of those things are so similar. But you also obviously do things that are different as well. So, can you remind me of what those things were? Because when I speak to you about when you came to Santa Fe, that was fantastic. So please do talk about what happens there.

LEF:

Well, each tribal community has specific foods that are ancestral in their own lineage. And those foods are very important when we talk about this idea of re-indigenizing using these foods for health and wellness. In our newest book, we focus on eight ingredients, which I call the Magic Eight in my research.

SM:

Yes, I've got that. Yeah, I talk about that later. Those are really interesting things to share, but please tell us now and then we can talk about those as ingredients later as well.

LEF:

So, corn, beans, and squash, which is also called the Three Sisters.

SM:

Uh-huh.

LEF:

And then chili, tomato, potato, vanilla, and cacao are all ingredients that existed only in the Americas until after 1492. And we use the word first contact. And what we're really saying is a contact with a culture group outside of indigenous America because we know that Native Americans had trade routes and traded different ingredients depending on where they were located. So, we can look at these eco zones or these different bio regions and different ingredients are dominant in those. You know, the East coast of the United States is a lot of seafood and clams and mussels. And further north is lobster. And then we go south and we get into corn and there's maple. And then we have the Great Lakes and there's wild rice. And we go into the Plains area and there's bison and buffalo. Bison is the correct term, but buffalo is probably a more common word that people know. And then we get into the southwest and we have chilies and Walter’s tribal homelands. There's the pine nut and there's on the west coast, there's acorn and salmon. And so, each area has different ingredients that are prominent and dominant in those tribal communities.

SM:

From a cultural point of view and a historical point of view, how important is that to you guys?

LEF:

Well, a lot of what we do is what we call cultural education. So, in order to reclaim health and wellness, you have to understand what happened. You have to understand the history. And, you know, in Walter's tribe, he had the Long Walk. And so that changed the diet. Different foods were introduced, different foods imposed. These were prison camps, you know, every tribe in the United States has a story that is a trail of tears. It's a long walk away from the hunting and fishing and gathering and planting grounds that existed prior to the impact of not only colonization, but immigrants that took those lands that were used by Native communities.

SM:

So, Walter, can you tell me a little bit about the Long Walk? I'd love to hear that because. . .

WW:

Well, what I've been hearing in the past when growing up, you know, not far from where I live, there's a small little cave. And so, one of the grandma stored the seeds before because they knew this was gonna happen. And then, you know, a day to come. So, they. . . she collect all the seeds and put in potteries, and then put a clay and closed it. And then they, I guess they closed the small little cave. And so, they took on that marching and walking. And the way I look at it, it's like they left everything, some of the ways. It's not only the food, the medicine. The ways was left behind. The land. And just something that the people survive on certain foods and the new diet that changed. And just something that, I've been seeing, you know, the Long Walk and...

SM:

Would you mind telling people what The Long Walk is? Because I know that some people who listen to this show won't know what it is and I've discovered a lot about it myself over the last few years. So, I'd love to know what it actually is as well because...

WW:

Well, it was relocated, being going on a different, to a different state, a different place, unfamiliar place, and being forced off the land. It was not only the people, the animal had to be chased off the cliff, and the crops has to be burned, and then the fruits, whatever it is that they survive on, was taken away through medicine, through ways, through teaching. Everything, was everything all changed. It was not down to, to the animals that they, you know, and just something that they took that march and who knows how many months it took.

LEF:

Yeah and it was at gunpoint. This was forced by the, the, the army. This was not willingly, you know. Once all the food was destroyed, the Navajo surrendered and then they were marched to Bosque Redondo, which in the southern part of the state of New Mexico, is now called Fort Sumner.

SM:

And what happens if they took so many tribes and forced them into the same area or did they keep them as separate tribes or Nations?

LEF:

This is just the story, the Long Walk is just the story of the Navajo.

WW:

Yeah, Navajo, but there's like Muskelele was there.

LEF:

Right.

WW:

And I'm sure there's other tribe were there because we were gonna march to walk, make a walk to Oklahoma, but that was the place that they stopped there. And it was four years that they had to change and adapt. There's nothing out there.

LEF:

Prison, yeah.

WW:

You know, how'd they go to survive? And they survived on what was given to them, you know, and how, and they changed the new ways, I'm sure someone had to learn how to speak the language or something, the second language that I'm speaking of, and that's what they learn. And the clothing and everything changed.

SM:

So, and this actually brings me to the next question that I was going to ask is, you, you talk about Native American cuisine and you talk about it split into four sections. You know, the pre-contact, the first contact, the government issue, and then the new Native American cuisine. So, I'd love you to be able to tell me how, by how much those differed or how much they were the, you know, how much they were the same.

LEF:

Right. So, the pre-contact period goes back thousands and thousands, about 22,000 years up until first contact. And we use 1492 to delineate that. And there was a diet of wild game. There were lots of wild plants, wild fruits, nuts.

And then, you know, around 10,000 years ago, we start to see the cultivars coming in, corn and beans and squash. We see the cultivation of chilies and tomatoes and potatoes and the harvesting of vanilla and cacao, which also became cultivated. And so, this pre-contact period had a diet that was gathered very healthy, people were moving around a lot to harvest. It wasn't a sedentary, there was cultivation, but you know, if you've ever had a garden or ever planted, it's physical labor, it's physical work. And then the first contact period from 1492 into the 1800s. And in this period, foods were introduced. So, the same way that the Magic Eight make their way to Europe and other parts of the world, foods from Europe and other parts of the world make their way here.

SM:

And what kind of foods were those that made the way to you?

LEF:

Well, the Italians did not have the tomato and the Irish did not have the potato and Britain had fish and no chips.

SM:

Yes.

LEF:

There was no chilies in Asian cuisine, East Indian cuisine, Greek cuisine. African cuisine. Areas that we now think of as delectable for their vanilla and chocolate like Belgium and France and Switzerland, no vanilla and no chocolate. So certainly, Europe and other parts of the world were completely different and completely altered and changed by the introduction of these Native ingredients. But history is never static. So as ingredients go to Europe and other parts of the world, ingredients from Europe and other parts of the world come here. The biggest and most profound was the introduction of the domesticated animal.

So, we start to see pork, beef, sheep, goats, chickens, but also their byproducts. Because Native people only hunted wild game. There was no butter, no milk, no yogurt, no ice cream, no cheese, you know, did someone in some tribe somewhere try to milk a lactating wild animal or a lactating, you know, 1500 pound mommy bison?

Maybe, maybe, maybe once, but word spread really quickly that that milk is for that baby and that mommy bison is not going to let you get close enough to take it, to touch her udders, to milk her. So, many, most, certainly Walter and I are lactose intolerant. We have no way to process dairy because dairy. . . not in the ancestral DNA. And so, it's really interesting, you know, certainly in the United States when the US government issued, you know, milk products to Native people, it's really not a culturally appropriate food because it's not indigenous to them. They had problems with it. So, this first contact included all the domesticated animals, but also things like stone fruits, apples and citrus was introduced. Northern New Mexico has had apples and peaches and cherries and plums and apricots, you know, for 500 years since that first contact with the Spanish, but things like beets and cabbage was also introduced and we see that now sort of woven into the diet and, you know, Walter’s community there's a special breed of sheep that's a Spanish breed. And while They did hunt the wild mountain sheep this breed is called the Navajo churro and it's a beautiful breed and it's very suited for this environment because it nibbles. Most European breeds of sheep rip and our desert ecosystem can't sustain. . . our grass grows an inch a year as opposed to a foot a year. So, this first contact period, we're starting to see these other foods. And then what Walter talked about in the Long Walk, you know, when you're in a prison camp and you've lost your home and your land and your crops and your animals, the government issued these rations. And these rations were lard, flour, sugar, coffee, and canned meats, very similar to what we now know of as SPAM. And these were issued twice a month. And this is where fry bread was born. This is where the Indian taco was born. We actually call fry bread a pan Indian food because almost every tribe in the United States knows how to make it. So, this is from that government issue period. And then where we really excel and what we love is what we call the New Native.

So really looking at what was ancestral and presenting it in a very clean, contemporary, beautiful way. Walter is a master artist and a master plater, and he makes beautiful plates. But the plates are not only beautiful between the two of us, they taste really good.

SM:

So, Walter, perhaps you could tell us about some of the dishes that you've cooked from the kind of pre-contact to the, you know, to now the Native American cuisine, the New Native American cuisine, and maybe talk to us about two three of them, choosing wherever you want them to land, and we can take that on to the rest of the conversation.

WW:

Well, you know, mostly I, what I like about is the Long Walk. What did they, what did they eat? That's cactus, you know, cactus pad and the fruits. That's one thing that I always loved that because you don't see that on a dinner table to this day. But we introduced, we're opening a new chapter, reintroducing this type of food because of the health-wise. The issue of people have problem with, you know, commodity, the government ration was introduced to us to where we're not used to certain food, you know, like sweet corn, because our corn was different. So, you know, and the... What I did in the book, what I introduced is the can, it's at the . . . is kneeled down bread. It has to do with the corn. You know, it can be used white corn or blue corn. And so, you put, you do it in a pit and, you know, you roast them throughout the night. Then I come up with this corn salad. Who says you can't add tomatoes?

And some other herbs in it, you what grows wild and just something that wild rice and introducing the corn. How can it be? How can I make it beautiful? The petroglyphs, the garnish that looks, you know, make it make our food look beautiful. So that's my area of when I cook and try to make our food look beautiful, be presented and then not only that, the blue corn and the white corn, we're doing a dessert out of that and frozen corn and things that I've been working with.

SM:

You could almost do like ice cream from the corn that's so sweet. That would be...

WW:

Mm-hmm. Yes. If you read that and just serve it to especially the younger generation are interested in this. I wanted to move back into the healthier way because of the diet, because what's happening on the Indian country. Not only that, everybody caught up with us now, you know?

SM:

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people who are so struck by the way the Native Americans cook and that makes me feel very happy because it's such an in-depth type of cuisine.

Now, let's talk about the ingredients that you mentioned in Seed to Plate, Soil to Sky, because as I mentioned earlier, it is such a fantastic book and it's one that I keep. I keep a few to the side that I look at every time and that is one of them. So, let's talk about the, the Magic Eight because you've got things in there that people don't even think about as part of the Magic Eight. Because like you say they're living in places that tomatoes were not a natural thing but you're getting them from Mexico. You talk about potatoes from Peru. You talk about all these countries but they are part of the American Native tribes. So, let's talk about, I've got them written down, so, let's talk about corn because that's one of the things that people think about. Where does it come from?

LEF:

So, the oldest known site of corn, its ancestor was called Teosinte, which was a grass. And from the grass, we actually have a corn poster called Indian Corn of the Americas, which is a great poster. Let's see. I'll have to send you a slide of that. But we have different corn. Yeah.

These corns date back almost 10,000 years. And then corn traveled not only to the south, but also to the north. But the oldest known site is in Mexico in the state of Puebla. And corn has been used in what is now the United States by many, many tribes. The tribes that didn't use corn traded, but... corn is a gift from the creator. You know, corn is food, corn is art, corn is maiden, corn is mother, corn is sister, corn is healer, corn is prayer. What else? It's a celebration. Corn is the indigenous grain to this continent. So, like rice is to Asia and India and wheat is to Europe, corn is the mother. Corn is the medicine. Corn is everything to this continent, to many, many, many, many tribes.

SM:

Fantastic. Let's talk about beans because I absolutely love beans and I know, I mean I was talking actually last season to one of my friends who is called Rancho Gordo and he's a fantastic guy and he delivers, I don't know, 50 types of beans around the country and delivers to me, delivers to everyone and so, I love beans. And so, tell me what type of beans you have and there's one that I don't know and this is what I wanted to ask about. Tepary beans? Is that the right phrase? Tepary? And so, could you tell me about that? I've never tried them and as a cook I want to try them.

LEF:

So first we have to sort of contextualize beans. So, beans are legumes. Not all legumes are beans.

SM:

Right.

LEF:

All beans originated in the Americas. But legumes like what is now the garbanzo bean, which is also a chickpea, lentils, originated in other Europe and other parts of the world.

SM:

Yes.

LEF:

So, they did not originate here so even though they're all legumes a lentil is not a bean.

SM:

Yes.

LEF:

It's a legume a bean is a legume so we, I just want your listeners to understand that what we're talking about is beans. So, one of our favorite beans is the tepary and the tepary's origin is in the southern part of New Mexico and Arizona with the Tohono O'odham and the Akimel O'odham peoples. And it's a very small bean. It's actually a bush bean, not a climbing bean. And it's very small, but it is like 32 to 23 to 30 % higher in protein than any other bean on the planet. It's very nutty. And we love to make a bean spread, which is very similar to what your listeners might know of as a hummus.

SM:

Oh, right, okay.

LEF:

Right? Right. So, we do a bean spread with these lovely little beans and it's delicious. And so, you can use it as a hummus where you can dip bread in it, vegetables in it. But we also put it on sandwiches, on toast.

WW:

Or make a sauce out of it.

LEF:

Or make a sauce out of it. It's so good.

SM:

Oh.

LEF:

So, we love beans and beans are so healthy. They're high in protein, low in fat, they're easy to grow. If everybody ate beans and let go of some of the meat, we have a much more sustained, healthier planet.

SM:

Oh, how, what do you think about the tepary beans then? Tell me about some of those dishes that you mentioned.

LEF:

So, we do, do a bean spread. We do a three-bean salad. We love kidney beans and pinto beans and Anasazi beans and black beans and we used a really interesting bean that we were gifted for my students. So really nice bean. We love the black runner beans, big white beans, Northern white beans. What's now known as cannellini beans, which the Italians use, but it's a big soft, white bean. We make soups and stews. We add chili, we add chocolate, we love beans!

SM:

They say I, I adore beans, but if someone wanted to find the tepary beans, is that something they have to get through my person like Rancho Gordo who has those or is it it's. . .

LEF:

Right, Ramona Farms is the farm that we buy from and they ship, I don't know if they ship globally, but we'd have to investigate that a little further, but Ramona Farms is who we buy it from. And then we sell their beans as well and use their beans. And there is one farm growing, one of the Pueblos here, growing out some of the teparies. And then there's some farms in California and urban areas. They're growing teparies.

SM:

Okay, so we'll have to get people to go and check those and I haven't eaten them so now I'm going to order them and try to cook. Particularly the hummus sounds fantastic. That sounds absolutely great. You've got me really feeling hungry now.

So, let's talk about the squash. So obviously you have lots and lots of different types of squash. How would you use them in indigenous cuisines?

Go on Walter, let's get some.

WW:

Well, I'm making like, I usually like make a soup out of it, you know? A soup. And that's one thing that I love to do because I want, like I said, I wanted to reintroduce the squash. That's one of the main thing that, and because they only see one way in being cooked, and I always wanted to, um, instead of using a potato, I wanted to cut it like the same way as they did it or make a salad out of it, you know? And just something that introduced something different. I add seeds to it. I add a sauce to it and grill it. That's one thing I always love to do. And, you know, so that's, that's my area. I'm creating the food and make it look good to be able to like, wow, I want to eat this, you know?

SM:

Yeah.

LEF:

Yeah, soups and stews. I think one of my favorite recipes from the book in the squash section is the spice roasted butternut squash.

SM:

Oh my gosh.

LEF:

And just heaven. I can just cut a little piece and have it with a salad or, you know, there's the kabocha squash with ginger. And then, you know, we, actually have pumpkin and I know pumpkin in other parts of the world is not actually used sweet. It’s actually more of a savory vegetable, but we do a pumpkin and ginger scone.

SM:

Oh my gosh.

LEF:

And a pumpkin pie with pecan crust and spiced pumpkin butter that you can put in jars and use on your toast and a pumpkin pine nut cake. And we love pumpkin, pumpkin.

SM:

So would you mind telling us, because again a lot of people won't know this and I do know it because I was talking about it with the Wampanoag community, but what the Three Sisters means because a lot of people won't know that.

LEF:

So, corn, beans and squash are a family to us. They grow together. They grow very well together. Corn needs nitrogen. Beans give nitrogen. Squash has big leaves to shade the ground and keep moisture in and weeds out. Beans need a pole. Corn is the perfect pole. But it's also the nutrients that they provide. Squash has vitamin A and vitamin C. Beans are very dense and high in protein and low in fat and every amino acid that beans doesn't have corn has and every amino acid that corn doesn't have beans have. So together they provide almost every nutrient known to sustain human life. But it's also that the way they grow, they're a family, they're happy together, they like to be together. Yeah.

SM:

I love hearing that and what I've noticed recently is a lot of more organic producers have been going to that system from 100, 200, 300 years ago, whatever, however long. You've getting organic people now using that thing and going, oh, we've discovered this for it and they're not talking about the past. So that's something that I find really fantastic that they knew, however many years ago it was, however, that the Native American tribes have been using that.

LEF:

Yeah, yeah. So, they're very happy together and they feed you and nurture you happy together. And, you know, a good term might be permaculture, right? And this knowledge that you keep talking about, we have a word for that and we call it traditional ecological knowledge. T-E-K. So, T-E-K. And every culture in the world has this. And what it basically means is that wisdom about how to do things, whether it's a recipe or planting or how to look at the stars and navigate or what to eat or a prayer or a song or a recipe, all of these things are passed down from generation to generation. And this knowledge focuses on an ecological region. So, if you're in an area, you know, that has a certain kind of climate, the knowledge of when to plant and where to plant and how to plant and when to harvest, all of that is passed down. And so, the TEK is a form of indigenous science that has a lot of validity. And that's what you're talking about, these new organic farmers saying, oh look, we can take this ancient wisdom and use it in terms of sustainability. And that wisdom is called TEK, traditional ecological knowledge. Yeah.

SM:

T.E.K. So that's fantastic. That really is.

Now let's talk about some of the others because you know some of them I think about but I always talk about them as dishes that have moved abroad. So, chilies is the one that you mentioned. So, let's talk about chilies. But how did they came into this country by other nations? But how did the corn, how did the chilies get into? You know, New Mexico, how did it get abroad? Because it was originally from Mexico, I believe.

LEF:

So, dips, many varieties of chilies did originate in Mexico. There was always a wild chili up here that we call the bird chili.

SM:

Okay.

LEF:

Because birds actually spread it. It's a very small, round, spicy chili. But the chilies that New Mexico is famous for were brought north. And so, you know, our state question is red or green? And what they're really asking you is which chili do you want? Cause you're going to get chili in this state. So, we have, yeah, the colors. If you get both, it's called Christmas. So, Christmas is red and green chilies on your food. And you know, chilies are amazing. They've traveled all over the world. They've just woven and infused into many, many, many, many, many cuisines that we can't imagine if we took the chili out, what those cuisines would be like now.

SM:

Oh, well my father comes from India. Well, he's passed away now. And of course, how could you go to India and not have chilies?

LEF:

Right?

SM:

So Walter, I want to talk to you though about tomatoes because again, tomatoes are something that we go, well they were invented in Italy. They must be invented in Italy. Look at Italy. And people, and when I tell people that they came from Mexico originally, but other areas... So how would you use those in cooking?

WW:

Well, for Native people, something new was introduced to us. It's not something that was coming through the diet, but through the commodity, that's where it changed. How we. . . for sauce, tomato sauce or tomato soup, or, you know, just being cooking or tomato salad or having it with corn chips, with salsa, you know? And that's something that trying to introduce in a new way of cooking and like we had the ceremony over the weekend, it's something that we brought food from here and introduced. . .

LEF:

Tomato salad.

WW:

. . . tomato salad with, you know, with the sauce and just a simple thing. In the stew, and to stew too, just something like that because it's always corn is always being prepared in a different way like so I add tomatoes to it. I add other stuff to you know and to make it even more healthier. So that's my area of doing and trying to create. At the same time, hmm, that will be our new dish. That's how it comes out.

SM:

Now tell me about potatoes because I'm British. I love, love, love fish and chips. They are one of our national treasures in Britain. The fish and chips. The fish I know came from Portugal in the 1600s or maybe the 1500s. They came up from the Portuguese Jews to London and the potatoes came across from another country. But originally I'm told they're from Peru.

LEF:

Yeah, the area that we now know of as Bolivia or Peru, but Walter's tribe uses potatoes a lot.

SM:

How to use them.

LEF:

Stews.

WW:

Well, mostly like back, I remember as growing up, grandpa used to plant this wild potatoes. You know, I don't know the name was, but we, we, we, it's always in the stew or it's always with, with, with meat, or you know, it was never with chicken or anything like that. And later throughout the years, over time, the diet changed. It was all through, in the Western ways, people start, you know, like mashed potatoes, like, you know, sweet potatoes. That's something starting new coming in on the reservation. Before that, everything was just straightforward. Nothing really, kind of just like plain. But coming here to New Mexico or, you know, places that I've been going, then I started realizing I can even make it better. Potato green chili stew. How about that? Yum.

SM:

That's lovely.

WW:

And just coming up with a new flavor and making a sauce out of that. And just something that I wanted to create something people that I want them to try something different. Potato tamale, you know, who says you can't do that? You know, who says you can't? So, you come up with your own tradition with the red chili or green chili. And you know, that's something that I, Lois and I, try to reintroduce what they can achieve and learn and to carry out the traditional ways.

SM:

Now the one thing I did want to talk about which is why I. . . not flip through but the others is. . . I want to talk about vanilla and cacao because I never think of those as being a Native American tradition. So, I'd love to know a, what made you bring it in. Because I don't think many people have brought it in to the Native American tradition and also how you cook with it. Because it's not just a sweet thing, is it?

LEF:

No, they're savory. So, you know, we look at vanilla, its origin is what is now the state of Veracruz, Mexico. And this little tiny seed, it's the smallest seed on planet Earth. And how did the ancestors know that this little seed could be mixed with cacao, which would be made into chocolate and it would become decadent. So, you know, anything from like a vanilla grilled peach to a, a melon salad with vanilla or a bread pudding, which you'll all relate to.

SM:

Yes.

LEF:

You know, these flavors, we also do a chocolate bread pudding and a vanilla crisp with berries that you might know of. You know, some people might say, oh crisp with the topping, but the vanilla is what brings that essence, that flavor, you know, and cacao, again, originating in Mexico and into South America, Belize has some really good cacao. How did the ancestors know how to take this pod, open it up, take the white flesh around the seed, take the seed, ferment the seed, grind it up, make cacao, and then take that cacao, add a sweetener to it, like sugar or honey or agave, and make chocolate. And now, chocolate is amazing. I think vanilla is the top sweet selling ingredient, but cacao or chocolate is the second. And, you know, together we call them the sweet sisters. They go very well together. They want to be together. They don't want to be separated. And so we have all different kinds of desserts and sauces that use vanilla, as well as cacao. And they're very special. They were definitely given to the world by the indigenous peoples of the Americas.

SM:

Wow, and that's to me, I never really thought of them as being, you know, a Native or an indigenous tribe, but that to me is fantastic. Now before we move on, I just want to ask you a few questions about how you think the Native American cuisine is moving on now, but I just want to read out those books of yours again, Foods of the Southwest Indian Nations, which is fabulous, and Seed to Plate, Soil to Sky that again I want to tell people because often I don't know why but people like to hear what I have to say. They. . . is one of the greatest books I think it is a beautiful, which is fantastic but also the recipes are just so sensational so if you do get a chance I want. . .

LEF:

We did not only the recipes, we did the photography. So, I would be doing the photographer. We had a cook making the recipes. Walter was food styling the recipes. And then we had a digital expert helping us catalog, you know, literally hundreds of thousands of digital images. So, we spent a lot of time, but we are very proud of what we did. Yeah.

SM:

You should be. I've worked in publishing for a long time and before I started doing this and it is one of the simply best books and I've spent, like I said, I've spent so much time reading it so thank you even for getting that into my hands so thank you for that.

But what I wanted to know now is obviously what you're doing is taking Native American cuisine forward. And there are also one or two places like Owamni, have I got that right? And there was one in Arizona, Kai, which I went to and that was phenomenal. What are those Native American places or using it or just using that, if you know what I mean?

LEF:

So, every chef is a little different and we're thrilled that there are chefs making indigenous cuisine and having restaurants. I know Native American cuisine is certainly one of the most underrepresented foods, but we're starting to see Native chefs. We have a lot of colleagues and chefs now all over the United States and into Canada that are, you know, revitalizing and reclaiming and re-indigenizing the foods and presenting them in beautiful ways and making them accessible to not only a Native audience, but a non-Native audience and educating these different culture groups on the history of the food. And so, we totally support that. And young Native chefs coming up and the new restaurants popping up, we're thrilled to see it. I know, Walter and I have been doing this for a very long time when there was no other Native chefs. And I think we support all the young Native chefs coming up and the restaurants that we see and we think it's a great thing.

WW:

Oh, yeah.

SM:

Tell me about it from your point of view, Walter, because I know you've cooked at the James Beard and was that difficult for them to understand? Because your food is fantastic. When I look at both of your foods, again, I see the pictures and everything, but tell me about when you went to the James Beard Foundation.

WW:

Well, you know, we. . . Representing the Native people there. I didn't expect, was the, I didn't know I was the first one that cooked there as a Native, you know? And representing, when I was told that, the first thing that came to my mind is I represent the Red Nation, the Native people and who we are to open the doors for all Native cooks and then, then I look further beyond that as to where there'd be day and time non-Native will be cooking Native food. So then for the younger generation and then, you know, you're beginning to, when you hear or see who you are and then they want it to be, I want to be like you, you know? I say, I always tell the younger generation to where it's like, be your own, create your own food, you know, because food is our medicine and some of the herbs that we use, that we utilize in the ceremony, we use in our cooking. And just something then I wanted, because once you're an artist, I believe that you wanted to make the food look beautiful, you know? Because I have worked on this book, not just with food, but the lighting, how the light's gonna hit and the plating, the napkins and what's going to be used and all that. So it was all about creating, exciting, looking back to where you were been chose to be part of this James Beard Award. I think to me that was a big highlight than some other award that you have gone through. But still you want to, it's not enough, you want it to do more. I think that's me, you know.

SM:

[Laughter]

LEF:

I wanted to create more and I have more ideas and you know, how can I create these other foods that my Native people eat in a healthier way? Change, you know, in a healthier way, you know.

SM:

I think that's fantastic and I think that's a good place to end this conversation. But after I do that, I've got some other fun questions to ask you. I'm not saying the last lot weren't fun because they were. They were really exciting. But I've got a few interesting questions for you to ask if you don't mind. So, these are some of my... and I always ask every interviewer these.

If you were any meal in the world at any time, what would it be?

WW:

I would be a cactus. A cactus.

SM:

Oh, that's fantastic.

WW:

Because something that's, it's different because the cactus has a story. He's the medicine to the people who has a problem with diabetic. And he's the eye opener during the time that people are running from the enemy or whatever. They put a storm between the eye and once they close their eyes, it pokes them to keep them awake. So, it's an eye opener. It's medicine for, you know, animals love it and it grows fruit too. That's what I would be, you know? Yeah.

SM:

Okay, that's fantastic. And Lois, what do you think? What would you be?

LEF:

I would be multiple courses featuring corn. Corn is my favorite ingredient. I would start out with a corn salad and go to a corn soup and then a corn tamale and then I might have a corn pudding and then just many, many, many courses of corn.

SM:

Actually yesterday I was in a restaurant in Dallas and someone gave us this kind of Tex-Mex corn where they roasted the corn and it was so beautiful. It was a barbecue restaurant and I love the barbecue but that was the dish that I was so keen on. So those are perfect.

Okay, if you went, had to go to any meal during history, or a meal at a particular point in history, where would you go?

LEF:

I mean, I would love to see what a meal was in the royal courts, you know, for the kings and the queens. I'd love to see what they were eating and how that was prepared, what that meal would be. But, you know, I'd also love to go back to a harvest pre-contact and see what some of the tribes were making when there was just this abundance of harvest and what a meal would be there.

I don't have a...

SM:

But that's a fantastic answer. And what about you, Walter? Any meal, anywhere in history.

WW:

Yeah. I, you know, like I'm like, Lois, you know, for me, I open up to when I go to any place because some foods are similarity to, um, from my reservation, the food, what we, what we eat, then I always say to myself, Oh, they do it like this. Oh, it made it over here. And to where it's just, I don't know, to me it's just like a medicine, you know, it's like moving around. And I don't know how to explain it, it's just something that I love all food because I wanted to understand what the meaning behind when I go to a different country or to a different place or to a different tribe or even back home, how they used to do that because some of the food I didn't know. It's a big, huge history about food. Not only that, the thing, what really realized that, I didn't know.

LEF:

Yeah, or Asian food, what were they feeding the emperors? What was an emperor's meal like? There's a lot.

SM:

I know there's a lot, but I always... And here's the third question, which I think is really interesting as well.

If you could choose any invention in the history of the world that you could be at?

LEF:

So, I'm gonna deconstruct your question because you're asking this question from a very Eurocentric perspective.

SM:

Okay.

LEF:

Like the invention has to be a machine. And I don't think the invention has to be a machine. I think the invention could be a process of cooking, a pit cooking, or using rocks and making a sweat lodge, or using... some of this information, grinding stone to be able to grind storm. I don't think it has to be made with metal.

SM:

No, no, not at all. So any...

LEF:

So, okay. So, I would say that the process of taking corn and grinding it into a fine powder, that invention, I would love to, yeah.

SM:

That's a great answer. Walter, what about you?

WW:

Yeah, like hunting or doing something with the from the animal, making a bag, making a, you know, how do you how do you make that water heat up and have a warm water? How did they do that? I think that for me, that's something that really interested me and how it comes out with the flavor and the way it smells and what it does. And, you know, people sharing.

LEF:

Pottery. Yeah. You know, how did big pots to put water in to heat it on the rocks. So yeah, then you have the hot water. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SM:

Okay, well those are I think they're great answers and finally I want you to be able to tell people how they can get in touch with you either through you know an email, or a, or through Facebook X I think it's called now Instagram, Blue yonder it's I don't know what they’re all called now.

LEF:

So we do have a Facebook page that's Red Mesa Cuisine. And we also have an Instagram page, although Instagram is a little harder because of how we both were raised, but we're really desperately trying to, you know, try and keep up. And so our Instagram is, Red underscore Mesa underscore Cuisine. Our Facebook page is Red Mesa Cuisine. And our website is www.RedMesaCuisine.com. And then you can contact us through the website in email. You can reach out to us that way, or you can reach out. Do you wanna do your email direct? Chef Walter's email is ChefWalter.NativeCooking@gmail.com and you can reach us also through RedMesaCuisine@gmail.com.

SM:

Wonderful. I know that there are going to be people who want to get back to you about some of the things we've talked about because I know it's been so interesting for me and I want to say thank you. I want to just say from my point of view it's been one of the great experiences to be able to interview again. I know that when we did the thing at Santa Fe with the people from there. They were fantastic and really brought you to me as well. So, Chef Lois Ellen Frank, PhD, I want to say thank you for you joining us. Everything you've talked about has been really fascinating, just as fascinating as it was. And Walter Whitewater, I want to say a thank you to you because what you've given us is an amazing thing. So, thank you, thank you so much.

LEF:

Thank you for having us.

WW:

Thank you.

LEF:

This has been so much fun, right? Yeah.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

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We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.