Eat My Globe

Interview with Author and

Smithsonian American History Museum

Curator and Project Director,

Paula Johnson

INTRO MUSIC

SM: (“SM”):

Hello everybody, I'm Simon Majumdar, the host of Eat My Globe, things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And on today's very special episode, I'm going to be doubly blessed talking to one of my favourite people about one of my favourite subjects. Paula J. Johnson is the curator and project director of the American Food History Project at the Smithsonian National Museum of American History. She has been a very good friend to me as I have spent time at the museum signing my books, presenting panels and getting to know her wonderful team. Now Paula is also one of the curators who was directly responsible for bringing the kitchen of my next favourite subject back to the museum. The kitchen belongs obviously to the one and only Julia Child, and has pride of place at this wonderful museum. And it is that kitchen, bringing it to Washington DC and Paula's role in that which we'll be talking about today. So, may I present Paula J. Johnson and she'll be discussing her most amazing book – and it really is because I have it here and I always have it by the side of my bed – “Julia Child’s Kitchen: The Design, Tools, Stories and Legacy of an Iconic Space,” published by Abram Books.

So, Paula, before I do anything else, I wanted to say a huge thank you for appearing on my show. I know just how busy you are because I've been there and I appreciate you taking time for this. So, first of all, thank you for coming along.

Paula Johnson (“PJ”):

Thank you so much for having me, Simon. It's a real pleasure to be here with you today.

SM:

Well, you know, we've done nearly a hundred epi. . . . Well, no, we've done over a hundred episodes of this and it's been too long for me to get one of you in so, thank you. So tell us before we go on to talk about the kitchen and everything around that, tell us what you've got going on.

PJ:

Yes, honestly, Simon, I've been giving a lot of talks about the book and, in fact, I'll be part of a cooking class here in Washington, D.C. on Sunday, Skillet Cooking School, and the program's called Braising with Julia, a Culinary Tribute to Julia Child's Kitchen. So, I'm really looking forward to that. It's a little bit different than most of the talks I give. I'll be right there in the kitchen with the students. And then I'm also continuing, of course, to do the work of a museum curator, conducting research, collecting objects, and planning and presenting different kinds of public programs. And we have a great one coming up on April 24th, focusing on the much beloved Italian American cookbook author, chef and teacher, Marcella Hazan. . .

SM:

Oh, of course.

PJ:

. . . collected material from her Italian heritage from her family. And it's going to be very exciting.

SM:

Now I know that a lot of the listeners to this and me included want to have your job because it sounds so spectacular. And you. . . . It is. I know when we've been there, it's a fantastic job to have. So again, I want to thank you for spending time to come on to this. But let's go on to the kitchen because I'm so excited about this. I really am. I want to tell you that you had one of the other heroes of mine and he was a guest on this show – Jacques Pepin – as the writer of your book's introduction. I'm guessing he was happy to do it. But I'm reading about it that he had an amazing time in Julia's kitchen. This is up in Massachusetts. He does call it a place of happiness and he. . . Didn't he actually cook her final meal in that kitchen?

PJ:

Mm-hmm. Yes, Jacques Pepin is marvelous and so generous. I'm forever grateful to him for writing the forward to the book. And of course, he's somebody that spent a lot of time with Julia in that kitchen and particularly in the last television series that was recorded in the kitchen, “Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home.” So, we all kind of watched the two of them in their ways of cooking the same dish in different manners with different techniques, different kind of preferences, and you know just wishing we could be in that kitchen too watching the two of them. But he was so generous also with telling me about all of the times he cooked with Julia when you know they were becoming who they became when they were building their culinary careers and they really did have this wonderful close relationship. Lots of cooking. Lots of sharing meals in that kitchen. And some of those stories are in the book, which I, of course, loved hearing about and collecting. And you're right, the last meal cooked in the kitchen was Jacques Pepin and students from the Boston University Gastronomy Department. And, just before Julia was leaving to move back to her home state of California, they came into her house and cooked a marvelous meal and enjoyed it together and toasted Julia on her way to California.

SM:

Oh, that sounds like just the most excellent dinner to be at.

PJ:

Yeah, I would like to be there too.

SM:

Oh dear. But tell me how you got involved in bringing Julia's kitchen to the Smithsonian. So, I mean, first of all, how did you know Julia? Because I never met her.

PJ:

Sure, sure. You know, as a curator at the Smithsonian's American History Museum, I was part of the team that was really looking to expand our holdings of material reflecting American food history, particularly in the 20th century. And so when we heard that Julia was leaving her home in Cambridge, Massachusetts to return to her home state of California, we decided to give her a call and just ask her if we might come and have a little chat about her kitchen, about her plans. You know, we were thinking we would do an interview with her in the kitchen and, you know, ask her about certain things. And perhaps, you know, we might ask her to donate a few objects that would be added to the national collections. You know, they would then be available for research and programs and exhibitions. You know, and we were thinking, you know, some balloon whisks, you know, maybe, you know, some copper. You know, we were just kind of tossing out ideas. But, well, my colleague, Raina Green, actually made the call and Julia was so welcoming. She says, come ahead. So, she invited us, come to Cambridge.

SM:

You've got a great. . . You, you, you really get her accent. That, that was proper.

PJ:

And, so that's how I met Julia, was walking into her kitchen. And for my first time and she was standing there, you know, greeting us because that's how she greeted people who came to visit her in her kitchen. You'd come in the back door, up a few stairs, take a right and there she'd be. Welcoming you into her favorite place in the house. And she was as genuine as she is on television. She was so enthusiastic and warm, and welcoming. You know, come ahead and let's talk. And so the story of actually collecting the kitchen and putting it on display in the museum is indeed a major part of the book. And it's one of those fun behind the scenes at the Smithsonian stories that, you know, I love to tell.

SM:

Well, I know we're going to get on to that a little bit later and in fact, let's talk about you and the book first because it's. . .

PJ:

Sure.

SM:

. . . it is such a fantastic book. I mean it just is. But first thing I want to talk about is not Julia Child, I want to talk to you about Paul Child. First of all, I love doing. . . . He's a label maker. I always remember that he had this thing. Beware onion skins. And I always remember that because he always. . . . This is something I kind of always observe when I'm ever I'm doing my. . . What's it called? My. . . When I use my own disposal, should we say. So, I was very pleased to see it. But can you tell our listeners about that and about him because he also took lots of pictures of. . . and so I think they were very much a team, weren't they? And even though people don't recognise him as much, they were a team. And it's like me and Sybil. We’re a team.

PJ:

Right, right. Thank you for asking about Paul Child because not enough people do. He was so important to Julia and her career, but he was in and of himself, he was a very accomplished individual, an artist, a poet, a writer, and so much more. And the kitchen indeed has signs and labels all over it. And that was largely because there were so many people cooking with Julia in the kitchen over so many years – either testing recipes or cooking together for an event or something like that. And so, he put labels up all over the place. And they're on masking tape, they're on those Dymo labels, those plastic labels, on paper, various media. And they are really signposts, guideposts for people and people who did cook in that kitchen with her really appreciated all of the instructions. You know, how to make the coffee in this particular coffee maker. That kind of thing. So, you mentioned the garbage disposal, which I love this too right near the switch by the sink. There are these Dymo labels. And it says something like, you know, to avoid catastrophes with getting things jammed up in the disposal. And it was: no grease, no fat, no artichoke L's – artichoke leaves – no husks, and beware onion skins.

SM:

I love that.

PJ:

And again, it's not just the instructions, but it's the funny way that the beware onion skins sounds. It's just, again, it just indicates a person who not only has a lot of rules but also a great sense of humor.

SM:

Yeah, and that's what came out when I went to see this and you know when we were signing up books in front of that and I remember. . . Oh, that. What I, what I also didn't think then but of course this was for other. . . all the people that were coming in rather than anyone else you know in that home, as it were.

PJ:

Indeed. And in fact, you know, famously on the wall of copper, he had outlined everything on the pegboard behind where each pot was supposed to go. Red for copper and black for cast iron. And there's a photograph in the book of, we took everything off of that pegboard. And you could still see Paul Child's red marks and black marks, for. . . lest there be any doubt where a pan had to be returned to after it had been used. And again, I just love that.

But you were asking about them as a team, and that is such an important point that I want to be sure to say something about it. You know, Julia, in fact, said there would be no “French Chef” without him. And she was referring, of course, to her first television series. And, you know, what I've learned in doing this book is just how key he was to helping her figure out how to do cooking on TV. They practiced together and everything. It was a true partnership and they, even before the television series, they. . . he helped her with the illustrations in her cookbooks. “Mastering the Art of French Cooking” with those line drawings, art, it was just amazing for people to sort of see from the chef's point of view what their hands were supposed to be doing, what the tool was supposed to be doing. And he did that by basically standing behind her, over her shoulder with a large format camera and taking these photographs of her hands and the tools, whether it was kneading dough or slicing vegetables or slashing the gluten cloak of a baguette, you know. It was. . . . This is what they did. And then the photographs were rendered in pen and ink by an artist, so they were very, very clear. Again, it's a hallmark of their cookbooks and the fact that they worked so closely together to make that aesthetic dimension of the cookbook happen is something, again, that really reflects their teamwork, their shared vision, and how they were able. . .

SM:

I love. . .  

PJ:

. . . to pull it off, yeah.

SM:

I love that. And I. . . . I was going to ask you that you know Julia used this kitchen – the one now at the Smithsonian – for her preparations for the first appearance on television. So. . . and I remember reading in your book that the cameraman said they had never seen a show so thoroughly prepared before. So that's obviously Paul Child’s love of it, but it was also her love of it. So, tell me what the cameramen were thinking and then what she came out to do. Because that's, again, I do a lot of television programmes and now, it's not easy, but we know what we're doing. But this is almost. . . not the first because we have. . . there were a few people before that, but this was very different, I think.

PJ:

It was very different and there is a literature on cooking on television before the 1950s. And even in the 1950s, there were a lot of shows that were mainly you know home economists, people who were giving advice about healthy food, cooking, and household techniques. James Beard, of course, was on television in the 1950s very briefly. But the thing about Julia and Paul is that they decided that these complicated French recipes, how to do that in 27 minutes, you know, doing it while talking, that is something that's... requires a lot of pre-planning. And so they sat down together and scoped out all of the steps that they would, that they wanted to show. You know, the key techniques, the key ingredients, what she was going to say about all of that. And so they did this. There wasn't a template for them to follow to do that. They figured it out themselves. And so, the producers and the cameramen were kind of, wow, this is amazing that they've thought of all of these angles in advance. And of course, it was a little rough at first. She was not practiced and, you know, apparently rushed through one of the shows and had like nine minutes left and had to fill it up. The other part, thing to remember here is that these were taped in one take. They were not, they did not have a lot of money at GBH or you know public television. And so, they were conserving resources and had to basically do it in one take. And they learned. . . . In fact, Julia and Paul brought in an electric stove into the kitchen. They took out the table, brought in the stove temporarily so she could get used to cooking on electricity and also to, you know, rationalize the steps. And that was something, again, that really helped her succeed very quickly in the television sphere. And it was due to their true partnership at that time.

SM:

I just love that. I was talking to someone the other day and he was saying, did she make a lot of mistakes while she was cooking? And did she, and was that part of what made her so popular that she made. . . . And the reason I mentioned that is we had a cook in Britain called, Fanny Craddock, and she used to make. . . and she was always just in a ball gown and she'd cook at the Royal Albert Hall or something and she was fantastic. But the fact that people loved her because of the mistakes she made. And did Julia Child make mistakes as well or was that you know something that she just did, you know?

PJ:

Well, A, everybody makes mistakes, but B, cooking, things happen.

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

You know, things happen in the kitchen and you're doing everything right and, you know, something doesn't quite work out right or, you know, a tool isn't at your hand when you need it most. So, you know, things happened. You know, I sort of shy away from saying, yes, she made a mistake. But things happened and she recovered. I mean, the whole point of, you know, teaching, she was a teacher and at heart. And she wanted to help people cook on their own. And so, things would happen and she would adjust. She would admit if she, oh, I forgot to put this here. Fine, move on. But she also famously said never apologize in the kitchen, just keep going. And I think that that spirit of I'm... I'm demonstrating this. We're learning this together. We're having an adventure. Some of that was, I think, really resonated with viewers. That if she is there trying this, doing this, that happened to her, she kept going, I can do that too, you know?

SM:

Yeah, and that's why I believe she became such a big star because she's doing French dishes, which often scared everyone but she did it with them and I love that.

PJ:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SM:

So, I can imagine that being asked to Julia’s kitchen for a meal was going to be rather fun but a rather frightening experience because she was such a good cook. Is it true do you think or? She did call it the soul of the house, didn't she? And I love that as well.

PJ:

Yeah, she called it the beating heart and also the soul of the house, for sure. And being invited to a meal there, the book contains some wonderful stories by people who were invited and of course were a bit intimidated until they arrived and were greeted by Julia, who loved to have people, you know, over to enjoy food and conversation around the table. For Julia, the kitchen was also the social center of the household. She said, you know, the reason she wanted to have a nice kitchen where people felt comfortable is she was like a sheepdog. She wanted to be in the middle of everything. Didn't want to be, you know, banished to a kitchen and not be able to be part of a conversation. So that's why she, you know, she invited people and preferred to have them in her kitchen as opposed to having a meal in her formal dining room.

So one of my favorite stories about being invited to Julia's home for a meal is actually from a friend who lived in Julia's home for almost a year. Julia and Paul traveled often and lived for months at a time at their home in Provence, La Pichoune. They often had tenants stay in the Cambridge house while they were on these extended travels. And my friend Sherrod and her son, or her husband to be, Alan, they were being vetted for the opportunity to live there. So, Julia invited them over for lunch, kind of for the final interview. And being graduate students, they were like imagining some sort of, you know, just, wow, we're going to have such an experience of elevated fare. But they arrived to find that Julia was standing at the stove cooking one big hamburger in a skillet. And, you know, she was just there cooking it. She added some wine. She expertly flipped it and then served it in wedges like you would, you know, cut a pie. And then on the side, in addition to the wedge, was a handful of corn chips. So that was lunch. And, you know, while they were surprised, Sherrod added, when she was telling me the story, that it was the most delicious hamburger she had ever eaten. It was transformational. So, you know, that's just to say that Julia cooked all kinds of things and was not always making complicated French dishes. She was an American after all.

SM:

I love that. And can you, I mean, again, just something to ask, which wasn't on that. Do you think you could tell us any of the people who came to visit her?

PJ:

To the...

SM:

Who came to visit her in there, some, you know, did she have stars? Did she have, or just anyone?

PJ:

Well, you know, she would. . . she had a lot of people working with her on various projects. She was so busy. She was doing talks and demonstrations. She was doing book talks and book tours. She was doing demonstrations in various department stores and whatnot. She was doing Good Morning America. She was writing books and testing recipes. So, she had a lot of people. And some of my favorite little snapshots in the book are of, you know, the folks like Sarah Moulton who were on the staff, so to speak. . .

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

. . . and cooking with her in the kitchen. And so, there was that group, but also, you know, her family. Phyla, her niece, was a student at Radcliffe, and would come to have lunch sometimes, dinner. Her grandnephew, Alex Prudhomme, the writer. . .

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

. . . he would come and bring with family. And then she would have sometimes invite chefs over, sometimes invite, you know, local people in the food space over. There was one hilarious anecdote that Alex told about he was there with his fiancé. And you know, there were a couple chefs, there was, you know, the, I don't know, the inventor of a cookie, a certain cookie. And then there was a woman that Julia had met that day at the gas station. They were filling up their cars and she said, come have dinner. And so here was this interesting group of people. And you know, Julia, this was her firm belief that eating and cooking are social activities and that played out in the kitchen.

SM:

I love that I just. . . . So, I know. I absolutely do. And the other thing that I really, really love is that she's got this collection – and you've talked about it earlier – of copper pans and cast iron and other items. So, I think, I didn't – if I haven't read this incorrectly – she described herself as a gadget freak. And I'd love to know about that because often the gadgets that she has were like the first they'd ever been. Like the, the microwave or the. . .

PJ:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

These were the first time everyone had seen them. So, I know they're not in the museum the ones that you have there, but I, but you have similar and so I'd love to know how she used these because I would have thought a microwave for her would have been like something a bit terrible. But any equipment. . . .

PJ:

Well, so I'll start with the microwave. The one that's in the book is actually in the Smithsonian collection. It's a 1955 microwave, the first design for home use. But it was huge. It was enormous, and it cost a lot of money, over $1,200.

SM:

Oh my gosh.

PJ:

It was made to look exactly like a regular oven because the thought was, oh this will replace your regular oven. So, there are these knobs and things. There's also, hilariously, a recipe drawer in the housing. Just under the door there's a little drawer. You open it up and there are recipes for how to make Thanksgiving dinner in your, in your microwave.

SM:

Wow.

PJ:

This was 1955, yeah. So, we use that as an example of an early microwave. But Julia had them. She tested it, she tried it. She was an early adopter and this was all, I think, in service to her role as a teacher and she wanted to have the knowledge, she wanted the authority. I'm going to try this, I'm going to tell you about it. And so she did try things all the time. And with the microwave, you know, she made a couple, there was a mistake. She tried to make a whole meal in the microwave at the same time according to Alex Prudhomme, but also she tried to dry off the Boston Globe that had gotten wet in the driveway. . .

SM:

Oh.

PJ:

. . . put it in the microwave, turned it on, and of course a fire ensued. So, yeah, but she, you know, she tried it and she decided that, yeah, she would keep a microwave. Actually, it was in her pastry pantry and she used it for, you know, melting butter, melting something, warming something up and warming up a cup of tea, that kind of thing. We did not collect the contents of the pastry pantry and that's why we did not collect her microwave. But yeah, she. . . to get back to your comment about being a gadget freak, she said she was a gadget freak and a knife freak and was very proud of it.

SM:

Yeah, tell me about her knives because I collect, you know, as people in the chef world, we collect many knives.

PJ:

Yes.

SM:

And, you know, people send them to me and I love them and then I'll go and use the next knife when that comes. You know, it's all great.

PJ:

Yeah.

SM:

So, I mean, she must get or she must have had many, many, many knives being sent to her.

PJ:

Many, many, many, many knives.

SM:

[Laughter]

PJ:

And she also bought them herself. You know, she would, wherever she was, she would stop in to the local kitchenware store or the cookware and she would look and purchase and we have a couple of really interesting invoices, copies of the invoices in the book that show just what she was buying in the 1970s, I guess it was. But as far as knives, she was always interested in learning more about what was available. And she felt this was research that would, again, help her communicate more knowledgeable with the home cooks and fans. You know, we have pictures of knives in the book. It takes up three pages.

SM:

Yes, she does. Yeah.

PJ:

But my favorite knife story is the one that she told about how she acquired her Japanese Ginsu knives in her kitchen. She was actually on a plane seated next to a Ginsu knife salesman. And as they were chatting, he took out his carry-on case that was filled with knives. Yeah, yeah. And he gave her a knife to examine and talked about it. And that was that. He let her keep it. So, this story is really such an artifact from the 20th century.

SM:

Yeah, it really is.

PJ:

I mean, really, it's a time when a knife salesman could board a flight carrying his wares and bring them out actually during the flight and brandish them in some way.

SM:

When was this?

PJ:

It was obviously pre-2001.

SM:

I'm sure.

PJ:

But I don't remember, you know, what the exact date was. She told us that story. She also had what she called her fright knife. And this was just a huge, oversized, ridiculously large, almost like a prop. And in fact, she kind of used it as a prop. She, being a good teacher, knew the value of props and humor in getting a message across. The fright knife was terrific for showing how to behead a particular large fish, that kind of thing. So, the fright knife, yes, was also there in the kitchen. Yeah.

SM:

Oh, that's amazing. She, she just seems like. . . . And that we didn't know about her too much in the United Kingdom. We didn't, you know, we had our own chefs and, and but when they started showing her and Jacques Pepin together on the show. . .

PJ:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . and it was it used to happen in the early afternoon. So, whenever I was, you know, not going to school, that's when they would show it. And I would always, always put it on and I just, and her and Jacques Pepin would come on and do stuff. And that's when I first got to know her.

PJ:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

But it was very interesting to see her because she was totally different to anyone in the UK right then. . .

PJ:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . and it was fantastic. And I love this because I have, and if you could see all my kitchens and the books and the, and she had plenty of books in her kitchen, didn't she? And they weren't all cookery books.

PJ:

No.

SM:

They were like all kinds of things. I've got here everything from the Massachusetts State Handbook to Bullfinch's Mythology to The Joy of Cooking. So, all of these books seem to have plenty of views when you saw them. I mean plenty.

PJ:

Plenty.

SM:

So, you know, was she a great reader?

PJ:

Oh absolutely. She and Paul were both voracious readers. And you know, what you've described just is more proof that the kitchen was a very versatile room in their house. They spent a lot of time there. And so, they had other kinds of books, not just cookbooks. You know, one of the details from the book that I treasure was learning that in the first years of having set up the kitchen and having this life at 103 Irving Street, Paul would actually read to Julia in the kitchen as she was cooking of an evening. And I learned this because I was looking through his correspondence with his twin brother Charles, and he remarked on, here's what I'm reading to Julia. And I just. . . you know, to me, that was just this wonderful little window into, again, how close they were and you know how important the kitchen was. Yeah, I love that one.

SM:

I absolutely love it. Yes, I know that makes me feel really, really good.

PJ:

You know, they had various libraries in the house. Julia had an extensive food and cookbook collection in her upstairs office. But we only collected the books that were in the bookshelf in the main kitchen. And as you saw, they were well used and stained for sure.

SM:

Very well used.

PJ:

And she had multiple copies of The Joy of Cooking, which she called Mrs. Joy. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

PJ:

. . .as well as kitchen copies of her own cookbooks. There were books on wine, maps of France, reference works on how to clean everything or how things work in case she had to repair something. And just a quick note, what's kind of cool when I show visitors the kitchen sometimes is that I point out, well, you know, there are phone books and yellow pages on the kitchen shelf. And of course, young people, they're like, what's yellow pages? And I have to explain it, you know, prior to the internet, we all had these big things.

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

And, you know, they find it kind of hilarious. And then I show them the VHS tapes, which are on the bottom shelf of her kitchen bookshelf. Like, what's that? I'm like... Well, yeah, she had those tapes of her cooking shows and a little TV on a rolly cart that she had just pushed into the food pantry just off the main kitchen. She'd reel, wheel that TV in and put a tape in and critique her performance. . .

SM:

Oh.

PJ:

. . . or watch the news on television. I mean, that's again how the kitchen functioned in her real life.

SM:

I love that. That's so good. I mean, for me, I always put a podcast on or a book. I always put a book on when I'm cooking and that's, yeah. And so everyone has these kinds of things that they're trying to do when they're cooking. I think that's the most important thing.

PJ:

Yeah, yeah.

SM:

The first thing is I, you know, Nancy Silverton. Well, I do Tournament of Champions with her. She's fantastic. But Nancy gave this thing she said Julia Child was encouraging and mentoring and learning. And this is when she was 81. She was still learning and I think that's, for me, that's the thing that anyone's got to do when they're cooking. If you're, if you stop and just do all the food that you already did, you're not learning. And I always am trying to learn. I travel around the world. We've been to whatever, how many countries around the world. And so, I'm always, always learning. And so at 81 though, you're thinking, how did she, was that just because of her?

PJ:

Well, you know, Julia was a lifelong learner and very proud of it. And I think it was part of her identity as a lifelong teacher. Teaching and learning are really two sides of knowledge, and she was very much involved in both. Her curiosity seemed absolutely boundless, and I think that that translated really beautifully on camera when she stood by her guest chefs, like Nancy Silverton, like Jacques Pepin, like Rick Bayless, during the programs that were filmed in her home kitchen, all of which were done in the 1990s. She was not only generous by welcoming people into the kitchen, but standing to the side to make sure that they were the star and that they were really able to demonstrate to Julia's audience and to Julia herself how to do the particular recipe, the particular technique that they valued, that they were able to, they wanted to demonstrate. And so, you know, she was just, I think that's just such a lovely part of who she was that she really welcomed people and genuinely wanted to learn from them, whether it was, you know, a particular technique or it was a particular cultural tradition that she wasn't familiar with. So yeah, lifelong learner. That was Julia.

SM:

That sounds fantastic. Now. The next. . . I was going to ask you and this sounds a bit stalkerish, but there you go. You have her telephone in the kitchen and I think next to it you have a list of you know numbers that she called and I wanted to know who was on it.

PJ:

[Laughter]

SM:

Because you can imagine Julia Child must have everybody. But I don't know if she had the plumber and then you know chefs and all of that in one little notebook or whatever.

PJ:

Okay, Simon, I will tell you this.

SM:

Yes, yes!

PJ:

On the speed dial, on the phone itself, here where's the speed dial numbers. Rosie Manell, Rosie was an artist, a food stylist, a friend, helped Julia in the kitchen a lot, and was also very much involved with The Way to Cook, one of Julia's really masterpiece cookbooks. Rosie also painted the picture of three cats and asparagus, which hangs on the wall in Julia's kitchen and is much beloved, much admired by visitors and of course me as well.

SM:

I've seen it.

PJ:

So, Rosie Manell. The AIWF, which was the organization founded with Robert Mondavi and Dick Graff. So, she had the AIWF on there. Geof Drummond, who was her producer of the cooking shows in the 1990s for A La Carte Productions. He was on it. And then in big caps, LIMO, her limousine service.

SM:

[Laughter]

PJ:

And then Stephanie Hirsch, her long-time assistant was there.

SM:

Yep.

PJ:

Her hairdresser was on it.

SM:

[Laughter]

PJ:

Of course, Phila, her niece, Phila Cousins, her niece. The Yellow Cab Company, and then the market H&B. So that was the speed dial. The little black book is another thing entirely. It's thick. And so that's a different story altogether, but that's a speed dial.

SM:

Wow, and it's such a mix.

PJ:

It is.

SM:

That's a... Okay, well that's good enough for me. Thank you.

[Laughter]

PJ:

Okay, there you go.

SM:

But now perhaps you can tell us a bit about bringing the kitchen to a Smithsonian, to the museum, because this is something that for me, I think it's almost, I always say it's like Tutankhamun. You bring that... It is and when I went to see it and the first time I saw it, I'm like I'm staring at it and going Julia Child was in this kitchen. And that's for me is everything. Tell me how the decision to have the kitchen moved all the way from Cambridge, Massachusetts to the museum happened. Was this something that Julia thought of and she wanted it to be? Was it something that you thought of? Was it a mixture of the two?

PJ:

Sure. Thank you, Simon, for equating Julia's Kitchen to Tutankhamen, the experience of. Yes.

SM:

And I've seen both, so I know.

PJ:

It was a big deal and I've tried to do justice to the story in the book in a condensed version here. Once Julia decided to donate the kitchen, we completed an inventory of everything in that one room and took a lot of photographs. We conducted an interview with her and then after she departed for California, we sent team number one, the dish pan hands crew up to Cambridge to pack the small items, meaning everything in the drawers, inside the cabinets, hanging on the walls and such. Dish pan hands just means that we ran things through the dishwasher just to make sure there weren't any residual oils or anything on it. Then the second crew went up several weeks later. They went up to remove and pack the cabinetry, architectural elements, major appliances like the big six-burner Garland range, as well as her furniture, the beautiful Norwegian wooden table and chairs. So, everything, of course, and both teams had to be numbered and tagged. . .

SM:

Yeah, I'm sure.

PJ:

. . . so that it could be correctly placed when the kitchen was reassembled at the museum. And it took some 55 crates and boxes to send it all to Washington, where we set ourselves up in a gallery that had a curved wall of windows and that allowed museum visitors to come and just look at what we were doing as we were unpacking things. We'd unpack things but then we have to photograph them, measure them, catalog them. We had conservators come in and take a look at everything to see if they were stable or to recommend any kinds of treatments. And it was amazing to see how interested people were in not only seeing Julia's wonderful balloon whisks and things coming out of boxes. . .

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

. . .but also kind of the care with which we were doing this work on over a thousand objects, individual objects.

SM:

And that's why I want to say that it was, for me anyway, as fascinating, just as fascinating, as when I went to see, you know, Tuta. . . Tutankhamun, because there's something so special. But, let's talk about it. So, I know that. . . . Let's talk about Jacques Pepin again, because he once said. . .

PJ:

Okay.

SM:

. . . frank. . ., I love this though. But said, frankly for me when I went to the Smithsonian and I just saw this through a window. . .

PJ:

Mm-hmm.

PJ:

 . . . I mean, it was a little bit freakish for him, he said. Do you think that other Smithsonian’s have the same reaction when viewing the kitchen? So how do you try and make it a real kitchen?

PJ:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Because when I saw it, you know, I hadn't seen it before and I thought it was a real kitchen I thought it was a great. . . .

SM:

It was fantastic. And it was, well, what's the word, well placed. . .

PJ:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . in front of the rest of the museum.

PJ:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

And I absolutely loved it. But someone who'd been there, I don't know how they'd think.

PJ:

Yeah, I think, and you've really put your finger on something that, you know, museums grapple with, which is that visitors are very different from one from the other. And, you know, you bring yourself to the museum. You see what you see because of who you are, and you might interpret it a little bit differently. Jacques did have an emotional reaction, and I can totally understand it. There are a few snapshots in the book showing informal meals in the kitchen. And Jacques is there with his wife, with Martin Yan, with, you know, Julia and Paul. And he had a very intimate connection with that place that few others, you know, aside from family, probably ever had. But at the same time, I've seen others who worked with Julia in the kitchen have very strong, very positive reactions as well in a way that they really appreciated having that sort of emblematic space preserved and available to everyone. Museum visitors who don't have that kind of intimacy with the kitchen, they will come and gaze into the space. And it brings back memories that they might have of their own cooking experiences or watching Julia on television. And they imagine things like, I just love to be, I have heard this, I would love to be sitting there having a cup of tea with Julia. You know. . .

SM:

Oh yeah, well me, I was thinking the same.

PJ:

. . . people do that. Yeah, I know, me too. So, you know, the other thing is that luckily in the gallery just behind the kitchen we have a 90-minute loop of clips, Julia's cooking shows from over the years. And this was put together by Geof Drummond of A La Carte Productions and we are so grateful to have it because it infuses the gallery with her voice and that distinctive voice that people, you know, you just hear it on television and it sticks with you. And so, her voice is there. It does enliven the space as does the kinetic energy of the colors and the movement that you see in the clips while they're playing. So, you know, I, again, people have very different responses. And for so many people who, you know, have, you know, not even a lot of experience with Julia, the room itself is so layered with things and is so suggestive to people about a room in the house for cooking and eating and being together that I think it really works.

SM:

That's great for me. But what I wanted to ask as well though is, at what point in time – because Julia was such a vibrant character – will she just go into history? Do you know what I mean? Because she's. . . there's a lot of people now who remember her and spend time with her watching her on television a lot of. . . but is that gonna change if we go and the Smithsonian will still be there a hundred years time. . .

PJ:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . or and will it just be a museum piece then? And I get really worried about that. . .

PJ:

Hmm.

SM:

. . . because she was so vibrant.

PJ:

Yes, I see your point, but I think that, you know, again, people bring something with them. And, you know, and you're even part of this when you look at how popular food television is and how everybody has their favorite people on food television.

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

I mean, we all do. And, you know, that food television is a thing that people bring with them now as a frame of reference when they're looking at the food exhibition and Julia's kitchen. And so, I think that making sure that people understand this is a place that relates to the thing that you like watching on television in the same way that if you like to cook, there's so many things in the kitchen that really, again, catch your eye and bring you into, you know, thinking about perhaps your own experiences. You know, the other part of this is that when we collected the kitchen, I think Julia was really happy that it was coming to an educational institution like the Smithsonian. Because this is a way for her message about cooking, caring about cooking, caring about eating and together, and caring about ingredients and caring about food, that this is a way for that message to continue to more generations of people. So, you know, I see your point, but I'm on the optimistic side of the spectrum.

SM:

That's good. I'm on the same, but I just wanted to ask that question. So, one more question about the kitchen and then some other questions that I need to kind of kind of clear up with you as well.

PJ:

Okay.

SM:

But. . . . The kitchen. Can I just ask you? Is it hermetically sealed? I don't know this answer, but people kind of go, well it is, and I don't, you know, I don't know.

PJ:

Okay, the answer is no.

SM:

Okay.

PJ:

It has a ceiling and it has viewports. The viewports correspond to the actual doorways in the kitchen, so we didn't cut any doorways. And they are made of sturdy acrylic, but there are gaps around the top of the viewports. . .

SM:

Okay.

PJ:

. . . to let some air circulate. So, there is some air that circulates, but we do have to, of course, go in and just make sure everything is tidy and clean.

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

With all of that, the dust and stuff is minimal, but we do tend the kitchen.

SM:

Glad to hear that. I just had this thing that people told me about the kitchen there and I was just like, I don't think that's right, but anyway. Okay, so, what I do want to ask you though, from my own signing my own book, which was great and I really thank you for that. I know how special it was, but what it does lead that beautiful kitchen, it does lead you into the other areas and so, you know, I had, you had the bottle of Chateau Montelena, which I just thought was fantastic and you had the original Tupperware and all of this but is it too unfair to ask you what you love about that or is everything just going to be, you know. . . .

PJ:

Oh, Simon, I love it all. I love the things and the stories. I can't never get enough. But I too love the story of the Judgement of Paris.

SM:

Yeah.

PJ:

The Chateau Montelena in 1973 Chardonnay, and also the...

SM:

Should we tell people what that is though? Because I'm not sure that a lot of them would understand or know about that.

PJ:

Sure, the Judgment of Paris held in 1976. It was basically a contest of tasting between the upstart California Vintners and the best of Burgundy and Bordeaux. And this was put together by a wine merchant, British wine merchant who had a shop in Paris. And it was kind of a bicentennial. 1976 was the American bicentennial. So, it was just a way of kind of calling attention to what had been happening in the American wine industry. So, this was a blind tasting, all of the judges were French experts, and there was one journalist there, but it wasn't a huge deal. But the wine was poured, first the whites, and the ‘73 Chateau Montelena Chardonnay, made by Mike Grgich in Napa Valley. Won first. And people were like, what? And, but then they moved on to the reds and, and the 1973 Stag’s Leap Wine Cellars Cabernet Sauvignon made by Warren Winiarski placed first above all the best of Bordeaux and this was seen as this moment when this attention was fixated on how great the American wines had become, especially California. And it's seen as a watershed where the wine growing in different parts of the United States and in different regions of the world, you know, kind of had the faith that yes, we can make them as good as or possibly better than the best of France. . .

SM:

I love that.

PJ:

. . . which was for so long the pinnacle. So yes, we have those two bottles and then, you know, I also have things like, well, your work with Global Cuisine, we've collected from restaurateurs in the DC area, Ethiopian restaurant and Chinese restaurants, and the stories that people bring with them and the things that they bring, the coffee ceremony and just the woks. These are emblematic objects that really connect us to big changes in, you know, how and what we eat in the United States. So, lots of different kinds of objects. And I'm just going to finish with one.

SM:

No, no, please you tell us what happened.

PJ:

Well, see, yeah, this is what happens when you ask a curator what you like, but okay.

SM:

No, but this is... this podcast has no limit of time. You tell us what you want and that's the key of this.

PJ:

Okay. You know, the section of the exhibits on back to the land movements as well as school gardens. So, Alice Waters’ Edible Schoolyard, Malik Yakini’s Detroit Black Community Food Security Network. We have tools and garden signs made by kids, trowels used by kids in these gardens. And that to me is a really important story to, again, emphasize. So, yeah.

SM:

That is... yeah. That will always... and we went to Detroit and we actually went into a school garden when we were there. So, that was really fascinating for us.

And I'm just going to finish these questions and then I hope that... I always call them fun questions but that's... I'm hoping that the rest won't be unfun for you.

But first of all, could you tell us more about the Julia Child Foundation for Gastronomy and the Culinary Arts? Because, you know, I know about it, but I don't think a lot of the people at home will necessarily know about it. So, please tell us about that and how exciting that is and how, you know, thoughtful it can be.

PJ:

Sure, happy to. Yes, the foundation was created by Julia in 1995 and began operating in 2004. Its mission is to honor and further Julia's legacy, which is a noble mission.

SM:

Yes.

PJ:

It's a nonprofit that makes grants to support culinary history research, scholarships for culinary training, food writing, and the like. In 2015, the Foundation created the Julia Child Award, which is an annual award honoring an individual or group who has made a significant difference in the way Americans cook, eat, and drink. The award has traditionally been presented at a gala at the National Museum of American History, and it's been my honor to work with the Foundation and the award recipients over the past decade. We've done it for 10 years now. The Smithsonian's Food History Project and the Foundation are our partners on this book that was published last year as well.

SM:

Oh, and finally on the kind of questions on this, why now did you think, because it's nearly 20 years since she passed away, you know. Is this, and I mention this again because we talked about it earlier, is it because at some point she's going to become a, you know, point in history and people look back and you wanted this book to be out there? Or rather than the wonderful person who we, you know, I always watch her on television now. Whenever she's on, I just stay there and let it all play. So, what do you think? Why did you decide to write it kind of now?

PJ:

Yeah, you know, I've worked with the kitchen for 24 years now, and I finally have something to say. But working with it for so many years and interacting with so many members of the public about the kitchen, and Julia's legacy, it seemed like the thing to do. To tell the story in detail, to address questions people have been asking me for two decades, to make a book that was so beautiful that even if you don't think you care about Julia or culinary history, you'll find something that catches your eye and interest in the book. You know, this is just a way of taking what I've learned about Julia and the kitchen by doing the research, but also from hearing the things that people really are interested in knowing about who come to visit the museum and putting that together into, you know, covers and making it available for people. I think that, you know, there's a certain sadness in knowing that Julia is no longer with us. But her story, as told through her favorite room in the house, the heart and soul of her home and the place that supported her long and wonderful career, that it lives on in these pages.

SM:

That's fantastic. And I will tell all the listeners to this show, of which we have many, it is the most fantastic book. And it covers everything because you get the passion of Julia Child, but you also get her obsession with getting all the stuff together. It's fantastic.

But now we're to do… I can see you getting worried.

Now, what we're going to do is, like I said, I hope the last questions before haven't been bad questions, but I always call them fun questions. But what I thought I'd do this time is to have you answer as yourself for the question. And, because I honestly think you're the closest to Julia that I've ever had on the show so far, or probably Jacques Pepin. So, I'm going to ask you these questions, one for you, one for Julia, for the three questions, and then in the end you can tell us about your social media sites and all of that.

PJ:

Okay.

SM:

So, if you were a meal, so if you, Paula Johnson, was a meal, what would it be? Anything, it can be anything.

PJ:

All right, well, Simon, I think it would have to be a dish that reflects my dual loyalties to my home state of Minnesota. . .

SM:

Ooh.

PJ:

. . . and my adopted state of Maryland. And what could it be but wild rice and oysters?

SM:

Ooh.

PJ:

I have a recipe that combines wild rice and oysters, little shallots, butter, celery, and the surprise ingredient is cardamom. It's delicious. Yeah. And a little cheese on top.

SM:

Unfortunately, I can't eat oysters anymore.

PJ:

Sorry about that.

SM:

But that's no. . . . It still sounds fantastic. Maybe I could put mussels instead. But we'll have to think about it because I can eat other shellfish, but that sounds fantastic.

PJ:

Okay. Yeah, yeah, so that would have to be it.

SM:

Okay, and if Julia was a meal what do you think she would be because she would. . . I don't know what she would choose.

PJ:

I don't know either and I can only guess. Let me think.

SM:

Yeah, no, you just have to guess.

PJ:

Okay, French onion soup and baguette. . .

SM:

Oh.

PJ:

. . . or hamburger and corn chips like she did or you know.

SM:

So I have a French Onion Soup recipe on my website. So, if anyone's watching they should need to go and follow that one as well because I think that's pretty close to what Julia Child would be.

Okay. Well if you had to go back in any time to any meal, what would that be? This is you I'm asking.

PJ:

Well, from my own experience, I think it would have to be 1990s Astoria, Oregon on the Columbia River. My friends and I. . . something you probably don't know is that I have done a lot of work in maritime history and so I've done a lot of fisheries work. But friends and I were doing some work and walking along the waterfront and a fishing boat had just come in and the captain gave us just the most beautiful wild Chinook salmon fillet that we have ever seen. It was, yeah, we took it to their house and made a fire and cooked it over an open hearth fire and it was so it was just insanely delicious especially with. . .

SM:

I can hear you describing it. It sounds great.

PJ:

. . . a beautiful glass of, of an Oregon Pinot Noir. Oh my gosh I still kind of think about all of the oil just kind of that beautiful fish. Anyway.

SM:

I had some Oregon Pinot Noir this weekend when I was in Portland and I love that because it's a lot fruitier and it's so good. Anyway, if Julia had to go back in time to any meal, where would it be?

PJ:

This is the easiest question ever because we all know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

PJ:

. . . about the epiphany that she had in 1948 when she first arrived in France, in Rouen particularly, on their way to Paris. She was virtually right off the boat – the SS America, which she had taken from the United States to her new adventure in Paris, where Paul was going to be the cultural attaché at the embassy. But she writes about how the meal of oysters, sole meuniere, a green salad with vinaigrette, a real baguette, fromage blanc, strong dark coffee, all with a crisp white from the Loire Valley. This she writes about in her book, My Life in France, which she wrote with her grandnephew Alex Prud’homme. And this meal, it just awakened something in her. She was already just, here she was, in Paris, in love with this, you know, marvelous, marvelous man, Paul Child, in this gorgeous place, having this amazing meal that just altered her world. That would absolutely have to be the meal that she would want to go back to.

SM:

Oh, that sounds so special and I know when I read about that it made me. . .

PJ:

Yeah. Yeah.

SM:

. . . my mouth water.

Okay last question of the. . . .

PJ:

Okay.

SM:

So, if you had to go back in time to see the invention of anything, what would it be?

PJ:

Well, you know, I have to say that, you know, I like things as well as stories about people. And so I can’t separate an invention from an inventor. It’s just the way my mind works.

SM:

Okay, which is great, you can name the inventor and you can name...

PJ:

So, I guess I’m combining an invention, an inventor, and the food world. I’m gonna stick in the food world. And so, I guess I would go with the bread slicer, the commercial bread slicer.

SM:

Oh.

PJ:

Because the first bread slicing machine was invented by a chap named Otto Rowetter in 1928. And it is one of the objects in the museum’s collections for which I am responsible at the moment. It is on display in Chillicothe, Missouri. But this machine transformed American bakeries. It was incredibly important. And it’s so, it’s just so, I don’t know, it seems so simple. And I would just like to be in Otto Rowetter’s workshop when he was figuring this out. So there.

SM:

That sounds. . . Okay, that’s a, that is a great answer and I, you know, I, I think I’ve written about it when I was doing something on bread. I can’t remember. But anyway.

And if Julia has to have to go back in time anywhere in history to somewhere really fantastic and she just wanted to see something fantastic being created, maybe not the microwave. . .

PJ:

[Laughter]

SM:

Perhaps what, what do you think? And I know you're only guessing but I think it's fun.

PJ:

Yeah, this is a guess, but I think if she could be at the birth of French cuisine, she would be a very happy person. I think that she, you know, whenever that would be, however it looked, I don't know. But if she could...

SM:

What about when the mother sauces came out when Carême started cooking them and they went from, what do you call it, from French style to Russian style with the three courses and all of that?

PJ:

Oh that's, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that if French cuisine was involved, that she would, and there was a change happening, she would be very, very interested in that.

SM:

So perhaps we could say that if she wanted to be in the kitchen when Carême was creating the mother sources that would be... that does sound...

PJ:

That could work. That could work.

SM:

Okay, that sounds fantastic. Well, and finally we're just going to talk about, you know, Julia Child's social media sites, the Smithsonian social media sites and if you could just name those that would be fantastic and because I think people who listen to this really want to find that out and if they and we'll show the book and we'll show this on everything and so anything you can do to get people to the Smithsonian and to Julia Child I think would be great.

PJ:

So the National Museum of American History's website is americanhistory.si.edu, SI as in Smithsonian Institution. Facebook is American History, facebook.com slash American History, instagram.com slash amhistorymuseum. So those are the main three. The Julia Child Foundation is Instagram.com slash Julia Child Foundation, one word. And let's see. Facebook.com slash Julia Child, it's very, very easy. Those sites are.

SM:

Fantastic. Well, I want to say, and this has been just the most fantastic conversation and I've just loved every bit of it because you've talked about yourself, you've talked about how the kitchen moved to the museum, you've talked about Julia Child herself and everything about her. And you've talked about the Julia Child Foundation for Gastronomy and the Culinary Arts. So, I think we've covered everything that we wanted to cover about it. And I just want to say a really, really, really great thank you to you. This has been fantastic. It really has.

PJ:

Thank you, Simon. I have so enjoyed speaking with you about this and I welcome you and all of the listeners to come visit us at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History, 1300 Constitution Avenue, Northwest Washington, DC. We are there.

SM:

I have always had such a great time wherever I have been, whether it's in the culinary side or even when I walked around and I saw the shoes from Wizard of Oz. There's just so much fantastic stuff in that museum. Make sure if you get time, go to DC and please, please, please go and see all these museums. They're just fantastic. They really are.

PJ:

Thanks, Simon.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Ring sound]

We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.