EAT MY GLOBE

INTERVIEW WITH MATT DAVIES OF HENDERSON'S RELISH

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

This is Eat My Globe. It's about things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And today, we're going to be talking about something really special to me, really special because although I'm from Rotherham and people from Sheffield might think that we're outsiders, it's very close to Sheffield. And I always had a Hendo’s Relish wherever I was. When I was a student, wherever I was, I would always go buy a bottle. And when I came down to London to study, of all things theology, I always had a bottle there. And it always used to go because all my friends used to have it as well. So, what I want to do is to introduce you to Matt Davies, because he is now the CEO. . . do I have that right?

Matt Davies (“MD”):

Well, thank you. I'm the General Manager, but that's right.

SM:

Ge. . . .

MD:

I run the business in Sheffield.

SM:

General manager, yeah, in Sheffield. And I know a lot of people in the US won't know about Henderson's Relish, but it is, to my mind, it's, it's like L and P – Lee and Perrins –but to me it's far better, uh, and it has a most tangy taste. There's something about it that I think is very, very special. And so, I wanted to get the General Manager to come in and tell us about his story and about Henderson's Relish. So, and he's sitting here drinking from a Henderson's mug, which makes me feel very, uh unhappy because I’m not having one of those in LA. But anyway. Uh, so tell us about yourself. Uh, Matt, how did you first come into, uh, the Sheffield story? And before we start I should say that Sheffield in the United Kingdom is known for its cutlery. It's known for its stainless steel. That's what it's known for. It's known as a steel town. I think it's actually related, not related, but sister relationship to Pittsburgh, I think, here in America, which is another steel town. But tell me how you came in to take over from Dr. Freeman years ago.

MD:

Well, thank you, Simon, for having me. And that's right, Sheffield is an industrial city in the north of England. You will, of course, know it well, being from the neighboring town, just a few miles away, Rotherham. But Sheffield's in the county of Yorkshire in the north of England. And I first moved to Sheffield for university 30 years ago. And so became aware of this small business in Sheffield called Henderson's Relish. And so I've been aware of the brand, the business, and I've used the product for many years. But only seven years ago, Dr. Freeman had the business in his family for many years, and his family still owned the business. But he sadly passed away just about 10 years ago. And shortly after that time, the family invited me to take over running the business on a day-to-day basis, which I was delighted to do. And so that was 2016, 2017, and I've been guarding the secret recipe of Henderson's Relish, I suppose, ever since then.

SM:

It's fantastic. You said after living there or being there for nearly 30 years I know that I have my sister still lives there. My younger brother still lives in Rotherham. So, I have a lot of love for that area.

When Yorkshire Relish came out and I’d love you to describe your uh the Henderson's Relish so people can see it because it's a I think it's a slightly thinner than L & P’s. It's, I think, anyway, and I like that being used in any type of sauces ever, and I think it has more of a taste than um L & P’s – Lea and Perrins for the people who are listening – but they do the Worcester sauce. I always remember that being called Worcestershire sauce, but that's different. Anyway, but it's that kind of product. But I'd love you to describe it a little bit more and then you can tell us about how that came out in the, well, 1840s, I believe, and then the kind of relishes that were around at that time.

MD:

Sure, thank you. So, there's quite a lot there, isn't there?

SM:

Yeah.

MD:

I mean, yes, to firstly describe, to describe Henderson's Relish for your followers, your listeners, it is a spicy table sauce and ingredient. That's how we would describe it. In the UK, here up in Yorkshire, we would eat things like meat and potato pie or shepherd's pie. And we would use Henderson's Relish both as an ingredient to give flavor and spice to the meal. Or, we would use it as a table sauce. It would live on the table next to perhaps ketchup or the salt and vinegar. And we would add it, in fact, you know, we still do. We add it on top of our meal to add flavor as a table sauce. So that's what Henderson's Relish is. You're pointing to yourself. That's what you do, Simon.

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

And it's a wee bit misleading because many people I know in the United States would think a relish would be something that you might perhaps use as a condiment. You might spoon it out of a jar and put it on your, on your burger or something like that. But the, the, the brand name, Henderson's Relish, because of the history of the company, relish back in the 19th century was a word that was used interchangeably, I suppose, with sauce. And as the history of the company goes back to 1885 and the life of Henry Henderson, I'll talk about in a moment before then, Henderson's Relish was a sauce and there's always been a sauce similar to a Worcestershire sauce that you would use in your cooking and as a table sauce. So, it comes in a glass bottle with a bright orange label and you would splash it on top of your food or into your, into your cooking.

SM:

Oh, that's fantastic. So, tell me a little bit more about kind of what was around at the time. So, you're talking 1800s, late 1800s, perhaps?

MD:

Yeah, so Henderson's Relish, perhaps if we understand the environment first, I suppose, back in the, in the sort of early to mid-Victorian times, so the early part of the 19th century, 18. . . 1830s, 1840s, you mentioned the brand there, Yorkshire Relish, you mentioned earlier, Simon, which was perhaps the, the very first of these sauces or ketchups or catsups that came out around that time. And remember that quality of food and availability of food is not what it was. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

. . . it’s not what it is as it is today. So, the food was often very cheap and so adding flavour to your food was a necessity. And recipes for spicy sauces were made from ingredients that were available, mushrooms, nuts, anchovies. And they were bottled and stored and they did provide a quick way I suppose of providing flavour to your food. And they were introduced, these sorts of sauces and table sauces were introduced into the British Empire, I suppose, by merchants and traders going out from England and Great Britain and coming back from all around the world. And the word catsup, in fact, is derived from the Chinese dialect word for a fish sauce. So, these sauces came from across the world.

SM:

Tell me yeah tell me a little bit about that. So, I do know obviously the history of catsup but so that was the first way that, that term ever got used?

MD:

In the UK, it's a term that's hardly ever used at all these days. You'll know if you go into a, into a restaurant or something or a grocery store and ask for some catsup, you'll be looked at. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

. . . very strangely today. But yes, back in Victorian times, that word was part and parcel and described these, these spicy sauces, the ingredients of which were coming from all around the world and back into England through the merchants and the traders coming back, coming back home. So, Lea and Perrins, you mentioned that brand name still going today, and another brand, Yorkshire Relish that you mentioned earlier from Goodall and Backhouse. They were two large family businesses, and these were before the times of Henry Anderson. So that was the environment that, that was around, I suppose, in England, in Victorian times. And ingredients such as tamarind, very important for Henderson's Relish, which is a tamarind is a sour fruit that comes from the tamarind tree, again coming back into. . .

SM:

Is that from India? Is that from India or from anywhere?

MD:

Yes, it's not actually indigenous to India, but a bit like tea, it's grown in India now.

SM:

Right.

MD:

And we import tamarind from India to put into Henderson's Relish even, you know, today. But many sauces, famous sauces like HP Sauce, which is a famous Brown Sauce as we call it in England, features tamarind.

SM:

I'm just going to show you my, my next one, HP.

MD:

Oh yeah. Yeah, it's cool.

SM:

Always. . . . See, I always have these at home.

[Laughter]

MD:

Yeah, and still going strong, part of the Kraft Heinz stable of brands these days. But in, in the late 19th century, just before the time of Henry Henderson, the, the neighbouring company in Leeds, which is the city just to the north of Sheffield here, Goodall and Backhouse is a Yorkshire Relish, was actually being made in what was at that time the largest factory in the world, and they were. . .

SM:

Wow.

MD:

. . . making eight million bottles of Yorkshire Relish by 1870 or 1880. So it was into that environment that Henry Henderson, the founder of Henderson's Relish, created his own sauce.

SM:

Wow. And tell us the story then of Henderson's Relish because that's, you know, I don't know, even I came in to see Dr. Freeman and he showed me the bottling plant as it was and then kind of got me out of the place and I still remember that because I couldn't tell a story about him in my book, “Eating for Britain,” because he didn't tell me anything and I want to. . . . I thought that would be a great story, so just tell me the story about Henderson's Relish.

MD:

Well, I will, I suppose into 18, middle of the 19th century, so 1850, Henry Henderson was born, not in Sheffield, born in Nottinghamshire, and left home, aged 18, became a miller, he worked in a mill, and then by his early 20s had moved to Sheffield where he'd started a business with a gentleman by the name of William Eyre. And William Eyre and Henry Henderson were grocers. They started a grocery store.

SM:

Okay.

MD:

So, by about 1880, so late Victorian times, Henry Henderson and William Eyre had this grocery store and the legend has it that Henry Henderson would mix his own version of a spicy table sauce, an ingredient that he would make on the premises in big barrels that he would store at the back of his shop. And local people word got around, word of mouth, the local people would bring their own glass bottles from whatever product they had and ask Henry and William to fill up the bottles from the back of the store. And by 1881, sorry 1882, looking at my notes, Henry Henderson, the Sheffield independent paper at that time described Henry Henderson as a grocer. Yet by the middle part of the 1880s, Henry Henderson was described as a Relish manufacturer. He bought William Eyre out of the business by that part, by that time, and Henry was known from then primarily as a Relish manufacturer. He employed girls and boys, men and women, to help him make and distribute his Relish around the city.

SM:

So did he swap being a grocer or did he keep going to be a grocer and then just sell this stuff kind of. . . . I love the fact that you're drinking cups of tea while we're...

MD:

Oh.

[Laughter]

SM:

I haven't... I put mine... but it was. I had a Taylor's Yorkshire Gold earlier. But I have it in a big...

MD:

Very good. Well, it's good afternoon here, so it's tea time, you know.

SM:

Yeah, it's absolutely tea time.

[Laughter]

MD:

[Laughter]

Yeah, well, we don't know how it happened really, but whether it was not a hit straight away, you know, Henderson's Relish, or maybe he was just a craft producer and selling, selling his Henderson's Relish that he'd called it to local people or not. But clearly by 1890, Henderson's Relish was becoming increasingly popular. Henry was advertising for staff in the local newspaper. He was described as a Relish manufacturer. And the environment here, which is interesting is, remember that Goodall and Backhouse up the road in Leeds, their Yorkshire Relish was a, a huge brand and they were marketing their Yorkshire Relish nationwide. It was known that they were litigious too.

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

Early examples of defending their intellectual property perhaps. And records show that they had spent, even at that time, 25,000 pounds.

SM:

Wow, wow, that's a lot of money.

MD:

in the 10 years between 18. . . .

Back in Victorian times, I couldn't tell you how much that is, but we're probably looking at millions and millions of dollars. . .

SM:

Wow.

MD:

. . . just defending their trademark. So, into that environment, young entrepreneur, Henry, maybe it's not a surprise that the barrels were kept at the back of the store and only. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

. . . supplying local customers. We have a young, nationally known major brand, and then on the one hand, we have young Henry in his grocery store in Sheffield making his own Relish. But you know, competition, just as it was then, is a good thing. And his business grew. He employed local people. And by 1906, we know that Henry had made enough money to retire. And 1910, had sold his business. At the age of 60, he'd achieved the dream, I would say, probably still for many folks today, which is to take retirement and to enjoy retirement with his family and to live comfortably off of the money that he'd made from the business that he'd started.

SM:

Well, I'm 60 next year, so I hope I have his money.

[Laughter]

Oh. So, tell us a bit about the, because good old Blackhouse, eight million, I know you mentioned that earlier, in the 1850s. So, this was, you say, because people wanted that little taste of spice on their food, you know, is that true of all English food, all British food at the time.

MD:

Difficult to say. I mean, I think what we know is that the quality of food in England at that time was not as it would be today. Ingredients were very cheap and scarcely available. So, these piquant spicy sauces such as Worcester sauce and Yorkshire Relish and Henderson's Relish played a very important role in that they made food spicy and flavoursome. And, and that's probably, very probably, the reason for the success of the Yorkshire Relish as it was at the time. And certainly, Henderson's Relish in Sheffield, back then a very local business that spread and grew through word of mouth across the city.

SM:

And I, I think just stopping in there right now, if people think about British food, it has some of the worst reputation. But I think. . .

MD:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . a lot of that is from. . . . It, it does, but I think a lot of that is from up to the 1940s. It was from, you know, the rationing.

MD:

Yeah, I'm sure.

SM:

It was from before that when you were saying, but I think since then, we've had. . . And probably since the ‘70s, ‘80s when I was starting to take notice of it and writing about food. That's when I think food has developed in Britain. We had a lot of immigrants. My father was a, an Indian immigrant. He was, he was the club doctor at Rotherham United for a while.

MD:

Mmm.

SM:

Which is, which is absolutely I love and I still support Rotherham United.

MD:

Yeah, someone's got to.

SM:

Even though they're the bottom of the league and then Sheffield one stage just above them so we're having a poor time and then Sheffield United bottom of the division above so. . .  

MD:

Yes, I know we're not.

SM:

. . . we are having a, a very poor time. I'm just talking football now, but people have to understand that I talk about anything on this even though I’m supposed to be doing history of food. They're both, they're all like the bottom of their leagues, which is horrible.

MD:

Yeah.

SM:

But um. But I think now this sauce gets a lot of use, even though it was originally made to spice food up. Now it's made because it adds a tang to the thing. Like tamarind, I think that's a special ingredient. And that's why now I do think it's, you know, the best in the, in the business. So again, I want anyone who can go and buy this, go to your local kind of British store, go and check it out because I think you can tell me later on if it's, if you're beginning to distribute it through those or whether they just go. There's a, there's a stall, not a stall but a shop here that sells it because the guy is a Sheffield guy and he is in Ventura, I think. And he goes well, I go buy because I don't buy this and then I sell it in my store. And I love that too, but he sells it at exorbitant prices. So, I don't go buy it from him. I'm better going to buy it when I'm in Sheffield. But tell us how, I know we're gonna talk about the adulterations that happen to all of this soon, but before that, tell us how you think people should use it now.

MD:

Well, Henderson's right, we've touched on tamarinds a wee bit, haven't we?

SM:

Yeah.

MD:

So, the main, the main ingredients in the, in the, in the product are vinegar. So, it's distilled vinegar that is bulked out and flavored with tamarind, garlic, cloves, chili pepper, sugar and salt and sugar syrup. And it's a deep black in color. And it's spicy and it's sweet. And you would use it, as I say, in giving flavor often to. . . . So, I know from my time in the States, dishes, family meals like meatloaf or a casserole stew, something like that, it would give a deep flavor to the meat, but also to vegetables. The key points of difference really versus most of its competitors are that it has no allergens. That's one of the things I'm sure we'll touch on later.

So, a number of sauces in this category rely on, on fish to give flavor or a barley vinegar, something like that, or soy. Henderson's Relish has no allergens. So, it's increasingly popular with caterers, with chefs, for example.

SM:

That's fantastic. Now, let's talk about the adulterations because that was something that used to go on in the 1800s a lot. And I've in fact been writing about that with milk. I've been writing about that with, last season, I did a thing on the history of cake, which was brilliant. So, tell me about. . . because I do think that maybe I'm wrong that Henry Henderson was a bit of a bad boy wasn't he when he started making this or you tell me.

MD:

Well, I don't, I don’t know so much. I'm not sure about the adulterations. You mentioned that you might ask me about this beforehand, and I don't know too much about how food back then was adulted. I know that spices today, we have to do a lot of due diligence on the spices that we import, cloves, peppers, chili, for example. So, yeah.

SM:

Do they all come in from India, by the way? Because I'm, I’m half Indian, and I'm just fascinated by that.

MD:

They do and they come from all around the world these days. So, tamarinds we buy direct from India, garlic we buy from China. And the spices come in from a number of different origin countries as I'm aware. But this issue that Henry was a bad boy, I'm not sure that's true.

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

I mean, I think that the other side of the coin to being a bad boy is to see an opportunity, isn't it? It's an entrepreneurial spirit, which was alive and well in Victorian England, I suppose, just as it is around the world today. And, I think if you can create something that's different, that people can't get somewhere else, then that's perhaps why Yorkshire Relish is no longer a business and Henry Henderson's, Henderson’s Relish is. And of course, if you can satisfy your customers delivering what they want. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

. . . then that's why I'm enjoying this job a hundred, nearly 140 years later. So yeah, I don't know. I think he's created a, a unique tasting spicy sauce that is as relevant today and sold around the world as it was back then.

SM:

Now tell us, I know we're gonna talk about this later, but we can talk about it now. You do have a lot of great fans, not just me, because. . .

MD:

Ah.

SM:

. . . I'm nobody, but, you know, you have Sean as well, don't you? So, tell us a little bit about all the, all the people who bring this sauce over to the United States, because we might as well talk about it now.

MD:

Okay, well, Sean Bean, obviously, Sheffield, huge Sheffield star now, I suppose.

SM:

He is.

MD:

Movies and series. A big fan of Henderson's Relish. Also, the Arctic Monkeys, a big well-known band, pop band, rock band. In fact, Matt Helders, who's the drummer in the Arctic Monkeys, when he was getting married, he came to the factory to pick up some Henderson's Relish bottles that he could put onto the, onto the table. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

. . . for his wedding and he had a trip around the factory. We have a few photographs of that and he had his own label done for his wedding.

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

Some, some sports stars, of course. So, golf in recent years seems to be Danny Willett, who won the US Masters a few years ago and Matt Fitzpatrick, who's the, I forget what it was, was it the PGA or the US Open? I think it was, golf, both very, very good golfers, both from Sheffield here. And Danny came to the factory, he had to create a dinner for all of the members of the Augusta National Club and chose to serve Roast Beef with Yorkshire puddings and Henderson's Relish. He came and insisted on buying. . . insisted on paying cash for all of the bottles and he said he was taking them over to the United States in his, in his special suitcase to make sure that none of them smashed on the way to Augusta. So, we have a number of golfers that, that, that use Henderson's Relish. It doesn't help my golf game but they seem to. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

. . . they seem to benefit. Richard Hawley last week, you may not know Richard Hawley but he's...

SM:

Oh, no, no, no. I have. . .  Richard Hawley is one of my stars because I remember. . .

MD:

Oh, absolutely.

SM:

. . . getting all of his. . .  I think he’s absolutely fantastic and in fact my brother-in-law, he’s a very good friend of his and. . .

MD:

Great.

SM:

. . . so I’ve never met him, but I’ve always loved his, his songs so. . .

MD:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . he’s, he’s been very, he’s been very good to me.

MD:

Wonderful, wonderful man. And he came to the factory actually just last week. He has a play opening, it might even be tonight, is it tonight or tomorrow on the West End in London, “Standing at the Sky’s Edge,” which is a play about Sheffield, which has transferred from Sheffield theaters to the West End in London, a multi award winning play based around the, the music of Richard Hawley. And Richard’s a Sheffield man, still lives in the city. And he popped into the factory just last week and had a walk around. A number of local artists and famous artists, Pete McKee, Joe Scarborough, they’re big fans of the business and big fans of Henderson’s Relish too. So, we. . . .

SM:

So, I hope, I hope that means that you’re going to keep going because I know when I was talking to Dr. Freeman, he was kind of a little bit unsure about whether you were going to keep going. So, hopefully now you’re going to be keeping going.

MD:

Well, absolutely. I think there are. . . . In the UK, in recent years, perhaps the last 20 or 30 years, the supermarkets, the growth of the supermarkets has been, has been significant. And so, you have today four or five main supermarkets that cover the whole country. And so, the consolidation in the retail sector has meant that the pressure on the supply base has become very noticeable. And sadly, a lot of small businesses have struggled to survive. Fortunately, Henderson’s Relish has kept going because we’ve continued to do what we believe are the right things, which is to meet the needs of our customers. We haven’t changed the product. We’ve continued to make the same quality product. We continue to work hard and efficiently and we, we market the brand, you know, as carefully and as considerably as we can. And so, we run a good business that’s profitable. But we’re, we’re not a huge business. We’ve kept our costs under control too. So, brands like Yorkshire Relish may have been the biggest factory in the world one day, but they’re no longer available. And it’s easy to get carried away with these things. We, we are a growing business. But, you know, we still supply the major supermarkets today, even though we are a small, a small site. Really because we, we have consumers who know the product, are loyal to the product, and support the values of an independent family business and we’re very proud of that and Dr. Freeman is no longer with us but I know from his family who still own the company, and I was speaking to them just this morning, you know, they’re very proud of Henderson’s Relish and in particular the relationship that it has with people in our home city. . .

SM:

Yes.

MD:

. . . in our home county of Yorkshire. We are a fiercely independent breed of people in Yorkshire and the North of England. And I think there’s a lot going to that.

SM:

Yes, you are.

MD:

[Laughter]

SM:

I could, I could definitely tell that. We, as I said, my brother is still in Rotherham, my sister’s in Sheffield, and they are particularly determined to tell me when they are. . . when I’m wrong, shall we say.

[Laughter]

MD:

Yeah, you’ll. . . .

SM:

Particularly living in LA, I’m wrong a lot.

MD:

Oh. You’ve got no chance there, Simon, yeah.

SM:

Yeah, I’ve got nothing. Uh, but you know, I do my TV here and all of that. So, I need to live here. Let’s go back to Henry because he, he’s such a, an interesting person uh, so just tell me, you know, you. . . . He, he did move and you mentioned this earlier. He, he went from that being a sauce that he had, you know, in a little barrel sold. . . . And then he moved it to being a new, I put it there. It’s his only source of income or certainly a, a good one. Tell me about that and, because I think that's an amazing, you know, ‘cause he wasn’t planning to do that, I don’t think. Or maybe he was.

MD:

Yeah, well, I think, I think you come up with a good product, you come up with a product that people like, and he was obviously able to make that transition from being a sort of a small manufacturer just in single barrels in his store to, to bottling the product and selling it across the city. And that was really Henry Henderson’s legacy. He gave birth to Henderson’s Relish and he, he obviously created the recipe, he created the product and was able to make a good living out of it. That’s what we know of it at that point. It was when he, when he sold the business and retired, and that would have been in 1910, he sold the business to another local, relatively local company called Shaws of Huddersfield, who are still in business today. And that was another family firm. And George Shaw, his son-in-law, by the name of Charles Hinksman, who had obviously married into the Shaw family, he was given the opportunity to run this Henderson’s Relish business in Sheffield that they bought from Henry in 1910. And by that point, Charles Hinksman did a great job with the brand and with the business, because by 1925 we know from adverts in the local paper and from the, the history, the research that we’ve done, that he was looking for tenders for people to supply up to one million labels that he’d be putting onto Henderson’s Relish bottles. And we, the food historian that’s done some work for us said that would have been enough judging by the size of the bottles, that would have been enough Relish for every man, woman and child in the city to be drinking half a pint every year.

SM:

[Laughter]

That, that is fantastic. It said in, in the bio that the original sauces were made, you said, with mushrooms, walnuts, oysters and anchovies. Is there any of those ingredients that are in yours as well, like the mushrooms or?

MD:

No, no, that's right. You can still get, I think, a mushroom ketchup in the UK.

SM:

Yeah.

MD:

But no, there's no mushrooms in Henderson's Relish. No, the primary ingredients are vinegar, sugar and salt, and caramel color these days, and cloves, tamarinds, cayenne pepper, and garlic. And they're the main ingredients in our product.

SM:

Oh fantastic. Okay, so let's talk about this because I know you were very kind to say I could mention them earlier but for people in America who will buy Lea & Perrins or something similar. I've got. . .

MD:

Sure.

SM:

. . . a Lea & Perrins. I've got a Lea & Perrins that's just done by. . . . We have a thing here called Smart and Final, which is just down the road here and they make their own Worcester sauce or. . .

MD:

Sure.

SM:

. . . something similar. How is that, you know, because that presumably was something similar to you and how did it. . . .

MD:

Yeah.

SM:

That's grown into this super huge business or certainly it's over in America. And so how do you, how did they go that huge and you have stayed very much as a, a Sheffield business right now.

MD:

Yeah, that's right. I mean, Lea, Lea & Perrins Worcestershire sauce is a, it's a different product essentially. Although it sits. . . .

SM:

Oh really?

MD:

It sits in the same product category. So, Henderson's is a, is a type of Worcester sauce. Now, Lea & Perrins is a, is a matured product. That means that it rests in barrels for up to 12, maybe 18 months before it's then bottled. And Henderson's Relish is not a mature product. It's made and it can be bottled within 24 hours. So, it's a different. . .

SM:

I didn't realize that.

MD:

Yes, and so actually, I mean, the history of Lea & Perrins is interesting in itself in, in, in the way that the product was initially discarded and it was only after some time that the founders, Mr. Lea and Mr. Perrins, realized that the anchovy basis of the sauce had actually matured and changed the flavor of the sauce. So Lea & Perrins as a Worcestershire sauce is a matured product, whereas as I say, Henderson's Relish isn't. We, we are very similar. We sit in the same category. So, if you go into the store, you would see Henderson's Relish as a Worcestershire sauce. And over the time, over the years, it has been marketed as a Worcester type sauce or as a Worcester sauce. You touched on why one has become a global brand and one is still a regional or national brand in the UK. And primarily like a lot of these major brands, it's to do, I guess, with advertising and the size of your budgets and also the desire of the owners and Mr. Lea and Mr. Perrins no longer own that brand. It's been sold a number of times. Today it sits in the stable of brands within the Heinz, in the Kraft-Heinz portfolio.

SM:

Okay.

MD:

And that's, I'm not passing a judgment either way. I'm just saying that, you know, with advertising dollars and the requirements of shareholders, of course, brands, brands grow, brands contract. Some are still with us and some aren't. But Henderson's remains, you know, a family-owned business. It has a secret recipe, something we need to mention about Henderson's that we proudly keep under lock and key, a secret recipe that's known to only three members of the family. And that means that yes, even today, the family come and they mix parts of the recipe that we use in every single batch. And there are only three people who know the recipe to Henderson's Relish. So, so quite different to Lee & Perrin's.

SM:

You've only got three people who can mix this. You’re, you're not one of them?

MD:

No, I'm not one of them. I'm not family.

SM:

Oh, so, but, so, if, if anything happened, and I'm not suggesting it ever would, but if anything happened to those three people, basically, I don't know, how many people do you employ?

MD:

We employ 12 people.

SM:

Wow. So, if, basically, if anything happened to those people, it would disappear.

MD:

Well, I think we would have to do quite a lot of scientific research. We, we. . . . I mean, I don't like to think about it, to be honest with you, Simon, I think. . .

SM:

Well. . . .

MD:

. . . Seb who works in the business with me today, he does most of the mixing and he's just had a year ago, a little boy. So maybe soon there'll be four people who know the. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MD:

. . . secret recipe, I'm not sure.

SM:

That is really amazing. Okay. Let's go on to some other questions now. What I've got to ask you this because I. . . . So, I, I'm a big HP fan.

MD:

Okay.

SM: 

But. . . . So that's this. . .

MD:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SM:

. . . Brown. . . like a Brown Sauce, a thicker brown sauce than you have. . .

MD:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . obviously it's a thicker. . . . I don't know if anybody knows HP, but hopefully this will get it, uh, noticed in by the US. Tell me about the sauces that you love of those types?

MD:

Well, I used to eat a lot, a lot of HP sauce actually. But yeah, so like you say, it's a, it’s a thick consistency table sauce, similar to a ketchup, but brown and much spicier than a ketchup. So, it’s a. . . You'll know, Simon, that if you have a bacon sandwich, it's synonymous with brown sauce. So, you would. . . .

SM:

Oh.

MD:

You would put a. . . .

[Laughter]

. . . a bacon butty and brown sauce is, you know, used to be a, a staple for me. Sadly, brown sauce is made with malt vinegar. So, I, I, I, a few years ago, I was diagnosed with celiac disease, which means I. . .

SM:

Oh no.

MD:

. . . have to follow a gluten-free diet. So, I, I’m, I'm mourning the loss of brown sauce. I still have the bacon sandwich, but I don't have the brown sauce these days. But yeah, there are a number of manufacturers of brown sauce, and of course, ketchup we have here. And of course, the big thing in the UK has been the emergence really of, of mayonnaise over salad cream. Because salad cream, of course, used to be a hugely. . .

SM:

What?

MD:

. . . popular table sauce.

SM:

Yeah.

MD:

But these days, of course, we just as the cappuccino has overtaken the humble cup of coffee, mayonnaise seems to have taken over from salad cream.

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

Some of your listeners or watchers will think, salad cream? What, what is that? Maybe you can, you can look at that another time. But yes, there. . .

SM:

I will definitely be looking at that.

MD:

Yeah.

SM:

I’d say I’m very fond of the HP. Now, did you know, I’m sure you did, but so everyone, and they won’t be seeing this, but if I hold it up again just for anyone who does see this, they’ll check it. HP sauce. Did you know that the HP stands for Houses of Parliament, and it was originally made for the Houses of Parliament?

Who first came up with the term, “Hendo’s” . . .  

MD:

Oh.

SM:

. . . for, for, for, uh. Yeah, because it’s such a. . . . Everyone now in Sheffield. They don’t go in and ask for Henderson. . . . Oooh may have a gla. . . . a, a thing of Henderson’s Relish. They go, oh have those Hendo’s and it’s. . . and so I want to know who came up with that?

MD:

Yeah, I wish I could tell you, I don’t know.

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

I think it’s a, it seems to have been a relatively recent thing. There are some people in, in Sheffield and around here who would just call it Relish. It’s perhaps used to be known more commonly just as Relish or ‘Endersons. You’ll know the Yorkshire dialect. You drop the first consonant of the word and you drop the H and you’re just ‘Endersons or Relish. But Hendo’s certainly now is the most famous nickname for Henderson’s Relish. And it’s a term of endearment, I think, when your, you know, long name gets shortened. It means that you’re familiar, that you’re appreciated, I hope.

SM:

Aww. That’s, that’s good. And for me, Hendo’s is how I always refer to it. We have very different accents in Rotherham and Sheffield. Very different, in fact. And yet there’s only about eight miles between them and I think this explains, you know, and they’re so different. And it’s the same with Barnsley, which is near Doncaster. They’ve all got very, very different accents, which I try and explain to people here in the US and they, they don’t understand it. . .

MD:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . because they do have very much the same in each state. They’ll have very definite accents that all take that. So, I don’t know why that is, but in England, it seems very. . . . We seem to have, I’m told, the most number of accents of any country in the world, from Scotland, Wales, all the accents are so different throughout them. And that’s something that, you know, even in. . . . Well, originally, even the Henderson’s Relish wasn’t known in Yorkshire. I still remember that. It wasn’t known.

MD:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s right. I mean, yeah, that’s right. Just on accents, you think about Liverpool, Manchester, and Sheffield, two, three, three, sorry, major cities. There are only. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MD:

. . . Liverpool, Manchester, 30 miles apart, Manchester, Sheffield, 40 miles apart, three very, very different sounding accents.

SM:

Yeah, totally different.

MD:

And yeah, that’s right.

SM:

Anyway, that’s a different thing. Okay, so before we go on to the fun questions, what, what’s the future of Henderson’s Relish? Because I think this is an important one, because I’m just going back and I’m buying it now. But yeah, it’s always going to be, you’re saying a small-scale producer.

MD:

Yep.

SM:

But what about the ambitions? You know, you’re the general manager, what else are you going to do with it? You know, you’re doing some crisps now. You’re doing all kinds of things. Tell me what you’re going to do.

MD:

Okay, well, I’ve been with the business seven years, seven, eight years now. And in that time, the business has grown three or four times. It’s much bigger now than it was. And that’s really a combination of factors. You know, we still remain a small business, as I say, we have 12 members of staff. We still manufacture the product in Sheffield. And I suppose what we’ve been successful to do in recent times, we’ve managed to bring a couple of things together, which is the capacity for making the product. We make all of our Henderson’s Relish ourselves. We don’t farm anything out to a third party. We don’t license it anywhere. We make the product ourselves. It’s made, as I’ve said, by the, by the family and by a small team here. And so, what we’ve been able to do is to successfully, I suppose, add capacity through automation, through more efficient machines that bottle and mix and cap the product and label it. So, we, we’ve added capacity and at the same time, we’ve been able to work well and very efficiently with the major supermarkets. So, one of the advantages that small businesses have over the major corporations is that we don’t have the, the margin expectations perhaps that the big corporations demand. And certainly, in recent times with the inflationary pressure that we’ve all experienced in the food business, we’ve been able to work successfully with the major grocers and the major food service and wholesale customers to increase the distribution of Henderson’s Relish. And now you can buy bottles of Henderson’s Relish nationwide. So, all of the major supermarkets here stock, stock the product.

The other side of that is growing awareness around food safety and trends in food in the food industry. So, if you are a major competitor, Lea & Perrins is made with anchovies, for example. If you’re a vegetarian or following a vegan diet for whatever reason, you can’t have it. Likewise, people like myself with celiac disease who follow a gluten-free diet, we can’t use Lea & Perrins over here in the UK, which is made by, with a malt vinegar. So, we are a no allergen solution. And I, I know from the last few years, talking with chefs, talking with catering companies and big food service businesses, the opportunity to supply a value for money, great quality product that has no allergens is a really winning combination for them. So, we’ve been picking up a lot of business just by working more broadly with chefs and with caterers across the company, across the country, sorry.

And then I guess also, we, we supply manufacturers. Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce goes into a large number of products, from drinks, tomato juice, through to ready meals, through to ketchups and other sauces. And we supply in bulk to a number of manufacturers across the UK who use Henderson’s Relish in their, in their finished products. So just domestically here, we’ve grown the business successfully and in the last couple of years we’ve started to export as well.

So, you ask about the future. It’s difficult to say. I suppose, the way that we do business is typically a family way of doing business which is our budgets are related to our turnover and our profits. We don’t get ideas above our station. We, we like to work with customers who understand the values of working with family businesses. We work very hard to satisfy our customers and give great value. And I think therefore, as with our export business, we’ve found that we’re now in 11 markets across the world, looking for more, of course. And we have capacity to supply. . . .

SM:

Can you tell me which. . . . Are you able to tell me which markets you’re in? Or. . . .

MD:

I’ll tell you a few, I don’t even remember them all. But we supply. . . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

Japan was one of the first markets that we started and we market the brand there. You’ll. . .

SM:

Wow.

MD: 

You’ll love this, Simon. We started talking to our Japanese customers about meat and potato pie, and they started talking about sushi and sashimi and deep fried squid and all sorts of things. So, they market it as a, as a sauce for seafood over in Japan. And we make it. . .

SM:

Oh wow.

MD:

. . . of course, in Sheffield and we export it to Japan.

SM:

That is fantastic.

MD: We supply. . .

MD:

Sorry, we supply Argentina, South America we supply. We, we’ve just recently done some business with a company in the States called World Market.

SM:

Yes, I was going to talk about that because World Market is something I know here very well.

MD:

Right.

SM:

And it is, as it says, a World Market. You go walk around and it’s. . . I want to get people who listen in the US here and we have you know many thousands of people who listen and those of you in the US should go and check out World Market which you most of you should have fairly close to you because if you want to see Henderson’s Relish and now you know about it, I want you to go and check. Go and buy a bottle. Promise me you will because it is delicious. And that’s the thing that always comes down to it. You can have all this, you know, all these history about it. You can have all of those and that’s fantastic. But if the. . . . If it’s not delicious, it won’t be worth trying.

MD:

True.

SM:

So go buy a bottle you will. . . you will love it. And I put it in. . . . In fact, I had chili yesterday, I made myself. . .

MD:

Yeah.

SM: 

I’m a chef, and I made myself a chili with black, black beans and all of this, because it’s just what I had. And what I needed was something to bring it up. And what I used, of course, was Henderson’s Relish. But it really does bring the flavor up. And I want you to try, anyone who’s listening, go and try Henderson’s Relish. Go and try it, because I didn’t know it was in the World Market, and now I shall go and buy it there.

MD:

Well, it’s coming to World Market. It’s coming by the mid, by mid year. So hopefully if your listeners can hold out. But they were the first company in the United States to show an interest in Henderson’s. And that was great. We supply a number of European markets as well as you’d imagine.

SM:

Fantastic. Okay. Now let’s have some fun questions before you leave.

Now, if Matt Davies was a meal – I love these questions – what would it be?

MD:

Yeah, thank you. You asked me these questions before, which you’ve given me time to think. I don’t know what I would say if I was just put on the spot. So yes.

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

I told you two meals, didn’t I?

SM:

You did.

MD:

And I think as you’re in the States, and I know I’m talking mostly, I suppose, to a US audience, I’ll remember back to a time in my life when I went to high school in the States. I went to high school in Michigan for about six. . . .

SM:

Oh, right. Where were you in Michigan?

MD:

I was in a small city called Garden City, Michigan. And. . .

SM:

Okay.

MD:

. . . that was between Dearborn, around the Dearborn area, Westland.

SM:

Yeah.

MD:

It was between the Detroit and Ann Arbor Michigan. And I was obviously a youngster, just for, I was an exchange student, I should say that. I was there for a short time, 30 years ago. Anyway, my meal would have to be the triple cheeseburger.

SM:

Oh god.

[Laughter]

MD:

I'd been brought up never to eat food with my hands, I suppose. So, meat and cheese and grease and cheeseburgers were a huge thing for me then.

SM:

Oh, that's wonderful.

MD:

So, that would be my meal as a younger me. But these days I have to be a lot more careful with my food. Sadly, I suppose to some extent with my, with celiac disease. But I feel much better for it. I must say I've had a lifetime of cheeseburgers. I'm not sure how I'd be feeling. But so, I think your viewers will know Indian food is hugely. .  . . Your listeners hugely popular in the UK. And we have in Sheffield some absolutely wonderful Indian restaurants and my family, my wife and children, we, we love a good curry which is most dishes are, are gluten free and so that would be the meal today, the meal I love on a Friday night, tomorrow night when my wife and I get home we'll have a curry.

SM:

Oh, that sounds great. And being half Indian and my father being a great Indian cook and me being now a cook, uh. . .

MD:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . the curries are what I often make. I’m pointing in the direction of where my kitchen is. Uh, I often make curries here and they are, oh. Okay that now you've got me thinking about curries.

MD:

Yeah. I know myself too.

[Laughter]

SM:

Now if you could go to any meal during history or a meal at a particular point in history, what would it be?

MD:

Yeah, well, that's a great question, isn't it? And I'm sure that your listeners will have a number of their own meals. I think. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

MD:

. . . for me, speaking honestly, I'm a Christian. . .

SM:

Yeah, me too.

MD:

. . . and there's one meal I... Yeah, and there's a meal I remember most weeks, most Sundays, which is fairly simple. It's a piece of bread and a small drink of wine.

SM:

Oh.

MD:

And for the Christian, it's an act of remembrance. It's simple food that points to the major act in human history, which is Christ on the cross giving his body. . .

SM:

Oh.

MD:

. . . and blood for the sins of the world. We can't go back to that meal. We wonder what it would have been like to be there.

SM:

Oh.

MD:

But we can be thankful for it and we can remember it.

SM:

That's a great answer. Thank you for that. And if you could choose any invention, any inventions in history, what would it be?

MD:

Yeah, okay. Well, it will be a ball, okay? A ball.

SM:

That's a great answer

MD:

Yeah, and I know actually, and I was thinking about this beforehand. I know this, I think it's this weekend, forgive me if I'm wrong, but the oval-shaped ball, the football in the States is center stage, I think. But I'm talking about the round ball, which we have over here, and specifically. . .

SM:

Yes.

MD:

. . . two, two great games that were invented in England many years ago. So, in the winter we play football, which I know you call soccer. And in the summer we play the game of cricket. And I have tried and failed many times to explain cricket to an American audience.

SM:

[Laughter]

Me too.

MD:

I'm not going to start again now.

SM:

Me too. Me too.

MD:

But yeah, football, in fact, football is native to Sheffield. So, you may remember this from your time here. But football, the very first football club was in Sheffield. Sheffield Football Club was the world's first and oldest football club. And currently I'm a director of the Hallam Sports Club here in Sheffield. And it's the world's first football ground in the suburb of Sandygate. So, Hallam FC and the ground around the corner from my house was the world's oldest football ground. And in the summer. . .

SM:

Oh.

MD:

. . .that ground is, is turned into a cricket ground because we share the, the ground with Hallam Cricket Club. And I'm the chairman of Hallam Cricket Club. So, wherever you go, whatever time in history, I suppose, men and women, boys and girls are playing and throwing and catching a ball. So, to imagine life, I guess. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MD:

. . . without football, without cricket and without Henderson's Relish was well, doesn't really bear thinking about.

SM:

[Laughter]

That is fantastic and I being a big fan of cricket, football – as in our type of football – and, and rugby, you would never have any of those. So that is fantastic. Now did you know though as well, I'm told, that soccer was originally came from the football association in England. And they called it soccer because they were trying to get something that crossed over with Rugger.

MD:

Oh.

SM:

And so, they called it soccer so the term actually came from England.

MD:

Right.

SM:

But went straight over to the US where it became. . . . Because they were calling football and I've never understood why. . .

MD:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . yeah, why they call it football but. . .

MD:

Me neither.

SM:

I hope people have enjoyed this conversation because what you're talking about is a small business who's growing. It's originally just from one area of the UK, Sheffield, which is something that's very close to my heart, and is trying to expand. But I wanted people here in the US to know that nothing is kind of the huge things. It's also these small scale. . .

MD:

Sure.

SM:

. . . things that can grow, can do everything. And here's something from 1885?

MD:

That's right.

SM:

That something has been going from. So, I want to say thank you. And this has been great, great fun. So, thank you very much.

MD:

Thank you.

[Ed Note: Henderson’s Relish may be found on Twitter/X, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok, and at HendersonsRelish.com]

OUTRO MUSIC

Simon:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Ring sound]

We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.