Eat My Globe

Interview with Claire Dinhut

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everyone, my name is Simon Majumdar and welcome to another episode of Eat My Globe, a podcast about things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And on today's very special episode, we're going to interview someone who describes herself as Condiment Claire, which I love. She has created TikTok videos as well as maintains a popular sub stack about her favorite condiments, recipes, historical tidbits and more. Now she has written a book called, “The Condiment Book,” about well, condiments. So please let me introduce you to today's guest Claire Dinhut.

Okay, now we've got lots and lots of questions to ask you because I absolutely adored this book, I really did. And, so, but before we get on with that I'd love you to tell us, what are doing now?

Claire Dinhut (“CD”):

Yeah, of course. I mean, firstly, I just want to say thank you so much for having me on because I'm such a fan of the podcast. And even if you go to the end of my book as part of the resources that I use to write it, it was listening to this podcast.

SM:

I did. . . I have to say I did see that later on and I thought, oh well, that's very nice because we, we don't get much credit for this podcast.

CD:

Well, I'm such a huge food and history nerd. I find it fascinating that I think what I did for so long, even prior to getting into this social media world and writing this book and all of that was my notes app on my phone was just random fun facts about different foods and things. And I realized, you know what? Life's too short to keep that to myself. And that's when I started posting videos, started writing substack articles, and now I have a book about it. So, yeah.

SM:

But what else have you got going then, do you think? Before, have you got another book coming? Because I thought, like I said, this is so special. And then I wanted to see what else you've got going. And then we can ask you some questions about condiments, which I love.

CD:

Of course. Of course. I just wrapped up the UK leg of my book tour. I was just in South Africa on my book tour. I'm off to Australia in a few weeks on a book tour and going to New Zealand as well. Never been to either country.

SM:

Beautiful.

CD:

So thrilled. I'm so excited to learn about indigenous cuisine and just I just I'm so excited. And then the US version of the book comes out in May, which is very exciting because that version is slightly different to the UK version because it has full photography, there are additional recipes. So think of it as the extended version. So the next six months are still very book focused, but still sending out that weekly newsletter because I like to be able to, know, research on my own and find some random tidbit of food history I want to share.

Yeah.

SM:

Oh fantastic. I know when I’m doing when I started this podcast, we started just because we wanted to do the same. We wanted to share and in the end we've got thousands of people listening to it now.

CD:

I love it.

SM: 

But that wasn't our plan. It was just to do it for us. So it was recorded. And it's exactly the same. So those things. So let's start on your book because you know this it really was a fantastic book. So. And I didn't think about this so I went to go and look it up. So, could you tell us where the word condiment actually comes from?

CD:

Yeah.

SM:

Because before we go and do anything else I think we ought to be clear what we're talking about.

CD:

Yes. So condiment comes from the Latin verb of condire, which means to enhance the flavor of. So it's basically that last minute addition to a dish that you don't need at all, but it just gives it that extra oomph. That's the best way to describe it. So, you know, you have a beautiful slice of bread and you're like, okay, you could eat it like that. Or if you wanted, you could just add a dollop of jam, add a beautiful pat of like salted butter. You know, just... It's that extra little cherry on top that makes it so special.

SM:

Oh. That's a great way putting it. I love... First of all, you've got me thinking about toast with butter, which is with a little salted butter. I'm salted for cooking. I love salted for... Something like that. I love that.

CD:

Condiment butter and regular butter. Butter can be both.

SM:

Yeah. Oh gosh. And again, please forgive me and listeners all the same, because all the way through this thing, I'm going to be making lots of yummy noises. So please forgive me. Now, one of the things I was really excited about was how the way you did recipes, you did science and you did history. And you managed to those in a way together that many people don't. And I'm probably going to struggle if I was going to do that. So, let's talk about how you started the book because I was thinking if I was going to start it would be from a technical perspective. You know, I wonder how XO or relish is made. Or was it, did you do it from a worldwide perspective? You know, I wonder why the Japanese love miso or did you do it together?

CD:

Well, the original book concept was the history of the world through condiments. I studied history in college, so I've always been curious as to what's on the plate in front of me. I also am best able to learn about different people from around the world through food. So that's the way just my brain works. And so, this book was kind of my grad school. And it was learning about things that I've always wanted to learn about. And when I was going through the process of researching the history of the world through condiments, going in chronological order, you know, chili and honey and salt like that to begin with, I realized like there's so many similar versions of the same condiment all around the world because we all really are so similar even if our nations have never even crossed paths in the past. And so, you know, I just kind of realized it would be unfair to focus on one territory specifically per condiment and in one certain time since so much has shifted that I decided to just focus on condiments, specifically, and kind of then show people, show readers how to make it at home the easiest possible way. If they want to pick it up at the store, they can also buy it from the store, but be able to pair it with interesting, unexpected like flavor pairings. But at the same time to kind of see that that same condiment is used all over the world in its different way. So, there's always like a map of the world that kind of shows you how similar we all are, like different pickles around the world, different chilies from around the world. And then also just kind of where that native condiment comes from and how it's shifted. So, as you said, a little bit of history, a little bit of recipe, a little bit of pairings, because I just think my brain is always scattered and I'm always thinking about a million things. So, this is kind of my brain on a page.

SM:

That, that's great. And it is very much the way I think about food as well. I'm always sitting there and I go, I wonder where that came from. And I'm sitting in bed even and I could flick through my books or go on Google or and I go, ooh, that's where that comes from. And I have such a great time doing that and I, I know my wife is the same so we have a very good relationship doing those.

Now, I love the fact that you put this super league of what your favorites are, I think. And I love the fact that you put a super league of condiments in your introduction. I really do like that. Some are things that everyone would know and some are things that they don't.

First off, how would you define super league? And secondly, how did you come up with your list? And I know if I came up with one, it'd be totally different. But I love the fact that you put this in your introduction because it gives everyone a feeling for who you are.

CD:

Yeah, I mean, I think the fact of the matter is, is life's too short to have a boring Tuesday night dinner. But even if you have a boring dish, you can always make it fun with a condiment. And the only way to create that flavor is through all of these different tastes and experiences and whether it's spicy or sour or all of that. And so, this Condiment Super League is basically... think of it as a guide in creating flavor. So, if you have some of these ingredients from each category, you're able to create that flavor. And the reason why I listed so many per category was because we all come from different places. We all have different condiments just in our pantry naturally. So, it's reach for that spicy category. And whether you like chili oil or whether you like pepperoncini flakes or whatever it is, pick one of those and then that can be your spicy element. If you want, you know, a more tangy one, like, okay, go more mustard or go vinegar, everyone's gonna have a different pantry. But if you have one of each category in your pantry, in your kitchen, you will never have a boring Tuesday night dinner. It doesn't matter if you only have rice in your house, it doesn't matter if you only have pasta, if you only have bread, you're good to go.

SM:

Well, I love the fact that pasta you could just I sometimes I know this sounds a little strange but I'll sometimes put Lao Gan Ma in the pasta and that's a little bit of salt a little bit of pepper and that's how I'm happy, you know, so when you get those done and it has the same effect as the know, the chilies that you get in, you know, the Calabrian chilies and all of those things. So, I love that.

CD:

I mean, even like rice, like rice with a little bit of salted butter and miso, delicious. And then if you want to even add a drop of honey or a little bit of maple syrup, like just that little, that's just the coziest bowl.

SM:

Well, sometimes I have to say I adore rice because, I'm half Indian. My wife is Filipino. And but sometimes we have. . . this is all we put on top of our rice. I don't know if you can see it.

CD:

Is that the shrimp furikake?

SM:

Yeah.

CD:

I don't the label too well, it's so good.

SM:

And I just, I love this and I would just put it on the rice. And what we tend to have here is eel, which we can buy from the supermarket. The. . . we have an Asian supermarket delivery system, which is fantastic. I know it's absolutely amazing. So, we'll get lots of every type of Asian food and we'll just get some rice that I make and the eel like an unagi and just sprinkle. . . .

CD:

That's what I miss most about LA.

SM:

We did that yesterday.

CD:

Good Japanese food. I miss it so much.

SM:

And I love it. We did it yesterday.

You begin by telling people and I love this about it what the different tastes are that you can receive in your mouth you know when people try this and I always said because you do have taste buds on the way down as well and people forget that on the way down to the stomach. Do you want to explain to people what they are because you name them and then sometimes people don't know what all of and you name six of them and perhaps you could talk about those in a little bit.

CD:

Of course, so taste is salty, sweet, bitter, acid and umami. And for salty, think salt. Think potato chips, that taste of just... It's so more-ish. You just keep wanting to have more. Then there's sweet, which is, you know, a bar of chocolate. If we're thinking bitter, that's coffee, endive, kale. And it actually was back in the day, very back in the day, as humans... tasting bitter was actually a sign to be aware of potential poisonous plants. So, it's the body's system of being like, oop, maybe you don't eat too much of that. But of course, kale, dive, coffee, we're good to go. No need to be worried there. And then there's also sour, which is citrus. So, think like the tanginess from a lemon, that flavor, the acidity. And then there's also umami, which is the newest taste, which think of it. . . . It translates to the essence of deliciousness in Japanese, that's basically what it means. But think mushroomy, meaty, it's just that miso, all rounded flavor that is making my mouth water talking about it.

SM:

Yeah, I know. Me too. And so, let's think of some of these because some of them like tamarind, which I use a lot in my Indian cooking, which that's probably the thing I do most. That's sour, but it's also got some of the bitterness to it as well. So how do you kind of describe those as well?

CD:

You know, I think the beauty of flavor is, and the beauty of taste too, is we just all have different taste buds. So, depending on how you also chew something, you can taste it differently. So, there are chewers, crunchers, smooshers, and suckers. Those are the four categories. I know I'm a cruncher. Like I, for some reason, I think I'm still teething. I love eating just like carrots during the day. I'm like...

SM:

Me too.

CD:

Okay, I'm glad we're on the same page. The most common way of eating is being a chewer. It goes chewer and then cruncher and then either smoosher, sucker, sucker, smoosher. But based on how you eat that ingredient, so let's say tamarind, if you smoosh it first, for example, and then you just then swallow it, you just get that initial taste and then you swallow it. If you're a chewer, you're consistently chewing on something, which sometimes more flavors can be released and released and released. Whereas crunchers, you and I usually will probably eat something, crunch it down the hatch. So, we don't get that initial flavor, but I mean, we get that initial flavor, but we don't see it progress necessarily. So, it's very interesting, especially when you look at ingredients, again, like tamarind, that have so many different taste profiles from like salty to bitter to acid to, you know what, kind of umami, if you look at it. Like it's just, I don't know, but it's, it all depends on, you know, your taste preferences and how you even eat it. So, we all experience the same ingredient and we can taste it in different ways, which I think is so magical. And I think that's the thing with flavor that's so key as well is you can never judge someone's flavor preferences because it also has to do with so much more, which we'll get into, but it's, you know, there's no right or wrong because none of us are experiencing the exact same thing.

SM:

So, we're, even if we're cooking them, we're just trying to play it in the right way really to see. And that's interesting though, I think from a cooking point of view, I think that's really interesting because as a cook myself, I'm not a chef, but I'm a good cook and I always do. I'm always trying to plan and I do a lot of events, which are 100, 200, 300 people. And I know then what I have to do is kind of lower the thing because if I put some chili in it people are going to go, ooh, whereas some people love it. And I think that's something that I have to do and do get that when you...

CD:

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's the beauty of condiments, right? Because then you can put condiments on the table and everyone can kind of make it their own. And so even just by seeing how people are playing around with condiments, you kind of can see like whether they come from a culture that uses lots of oil or maybe spicier food or this or that. So, it's just, it's again, fascinating. I love it.

SM:

I know, me too. So, tell us again what those ways you could chew, crunch, tell us about those.

CD:

So, it's chewers, crunchers, smooshers, which basically you smoosh the food in between your tongue and your palate. And so, you don't even use your teeth, just... The listener can't see the face that I'm making right now.

SM:

But I could, I'm sure they could have, I'm sure they could tell.

CD:

And then suckers where it's basically like drinking. So, if you're drinking orange juice, you're a sucker. But even when I drink orange juice, I bite down on it, which is very odd, but I can't just swallow. So, we all have a different way of eating, which is fascinating. And I think, as I was saying before, this book really was my own grad school because these were things that I didn't even know beforehand. So, I had the best time writing this book because I just got to dive into, you know, so many different things that I'm so lucky that my job lets me do. So, yeah.

SM:

So, and this is something you talk about a lot during the book, the difference between taste, which is something, you know, and flavor. And that's something that we sometimes use together, but they're very different things, I think. So, I'd love you to describe that because a lot of people who are listening to this probably don't know the difference between, you know, taste and flavor.

CD:

So, taste is salty, sweet, bitter, acid, umami. So, all those descriptions we just gave. Flavor now has to do with color, texture, smell, but more importantly to me, nostalgia and memory. So, the idea of flavor is that it's something that's super nostalgic, that's ingrained in your brain. And my argument is basically that condiments are the flavor element because every culture can make a roast chicken. Every family has their version of a roast chicken. But it's what you put on it that actually makes it so yours. And that element is the condiment. And so, if you think about, you know, your favorite condiment, or if you ask someone what their favorite condiment is, usually it has to do with their childhood or something that was always on the table, or maybe a trip they went on when they tried X, Y, and Z sauce, and they're like, that sauce was great. This one was blah, blah, blah. So, for example, I love Dijon mustard. Dijon mustard is always gonna be my favorite condiment. My dad’s French. . .

SM:

And I know we're going to talk about that later on, aren't we?

CD:

Yes we will. Of course. How could we not?

SM:

And I've got to tell you that in my fridge, which is just here, the one thing I always have in mustard is a large thing of Dijon mustard.

CD:

It's so important.

SM:

I use it in dishes. I use it with dishes. That and HP sauce, but we'll talk about that.

CD:

Yeah, but it's the idea, you know that because my father's French. We always had it on the table and I always had it, you know, breakfast, lunch and dinner, snacks. There's always a way for me to consume Dijon mustard. So, it's my favorite condiment because you know I am so lucky that I get to travel so much for work and just in general to visit friends and family around the world. But if I'm ever having a moment where like ooh, I haven't been home in a while I just feel off, if I have Dijon mustard, I automatically feel comforted and at home because it's something. . . . It's flavor. It's not just a random taste. It really is flavor because it is so nostalgic to me.

SM:

Oh, fantastic. Oh, you've got me thinking about Dijon mustard now, which I do. I absolutely love. Right. But don't give too much away because I know we're going to be talking about these later. OK.

You also talk about classic condiments. Now, for me, I think HP Sauce is one of the classic and that's probably because A, I'm Indian, so a lot of it came from India.

CD:

Yeah.

SM:

And B, I'm British.

CD:

Yeah.

SM:

So, HP Sauce, which I believe means House of Parliament Sauce.

CD:

Yes.

SM:

So that's like at the start for me. But you've named some. So how did you decide which to choose as your classics?

CD:

You know, there, I wish I had a great answer for this, but there are certain things that you just need to concede to the publishers that they would like to see. And also, as an American, when you think of, you know, a main trio of condiments, I think in America especially, it's ketchup, mayo, and mustard. And mustard, I mean, mayo is the most popular condiment around the globe, fun fact.

SM:

Oh really?

CD:

It's the most sold condiment around the globe.

SM:

Oh wow, and yeah, it is. I know though, you know, I have some Japanese Mayonnaise whatever was it would call it.

CD:

Kewpie.

SM:

I've got probably some of it here. Kewpie.

CD:

Yeah.

SM:

Which is fantastic. I love that and in fact, we use that more than anything else. But let's. . . . What else? If we were to name Mayonnaises around the world, would they have different names?

CD:

Yes.

SM:

Will there be different things? Would they be different in style as well?

CD:

Yes. Yes. So, I actually, there's a chart in my book or the map of the world. There's a map of the world with all of the mayonnaises from around the world because, you know, I love it. I love it when someone says, I don't like mayo. And I'm like, okay, well, what kind of mayo don't you like? And they're like, we don't need to this conversation. I'm like, no, no, actually, we're going to go deep in this conversation because I will find mayo that you like.

SM:

I love this. I love this.

CD:

And mayos around the world are so different, you know? So, if you look at a classic US Hellman's mayo, which I don't discriminate, I love any and all mayo.

SM:

No, I love. . . .

CD:

Hellman's is made with full egg and oil. So, it's the egg white and the egg yolk and oil. French mayonnaise, which is my personal favorite again, because it's what I was raised with. It's just the egg yolk. So, it's richer.

SM:

Yep.

CD:

Oil, but also Dijon mustard and lemon juice.

SM:

Ooh.

CD:

So, there's that little bit of that tang. Kewpie mayo, which is very close second favorite of mine, which as you were just saying, you loved. There is also that tang and it's also egg yolk. So, it's egg yolk and vinegar. So not Dijon mustard and lemon, but vinegar. It's rice wine vinegar. So, you can kind of see around the world how people make mayo differently. I believe in Belgium, they use quite a bit of sugar inside, which makes it super fluffy. And they also use the full egg as well. So, it kind of has a similar Hellman's-y texture and flavor profile where it's not zingy. But it's just really nice and creamy and sweet. So that's what they eat their chips and fries with. Yeah, so it's again, even though the book was supposed to be the history of the world through condiments, very quickly I realized we're all really the same. We all really like a creamy sauce. We all have our own different ways of making it. So may as well touch upon all of them.

SM:

And let's talk about the mayonnaise because often I have the Kewpie, which is great, which is actually the best for me. But when I make it myself, that's something different because I do the thing where I use an immersion blender into the pot. But I'll always put a lot of Dijon mustard in that and actually one egg yolk. So that's very good. And then I'll whiz it up. So how do you make your mayonnaise when you make it yourself?

CD:

I make it like that as well. I like just egg yolk, a lot of Dijon mustard. I also will use some lemon juice. You know, sometimes I'll add in a little bit of MSG just because it'll give that...

SM:

I love. . . I've got a thing full of MSG in the cup because we use. . .  I love it and I, we always put it in Filipino food, we always put it in. I put it actually in any stew or anything like that because it works.

CD:

It's so, I mean, it's just so delicious.

SM:

And if anyone's not, if anyone's listening and doesn't know what MSG is, can we explain to them what it is? And we don't have this question here, but that's where I like to go with this. I always like to go all over the place, but I'd love you to describe what MSG is because people just go, it's, it's unnatural or it's, you know how they do. And I'd you to describe it.

CD:

You know, MSG has a very bad rep and I think that is partially, you know, it's definitely a racial, just bizarre, either preconceived notion or just, I don't know if there was a bad advertisement about it once. I genuinely, should know more about kind of its history in terms of why it's viewed the way it is. But MSG is monosodium glutamate and it's this, it looks like salt and it tastes salty, but also umami. So, it's that first taste we were just saying was the most recent one added to the group. And so, it gives you that salty taste, but there's an aftertaste that really is rich and leaves you wanting more. And you can use it in dressings. You can use it in marinades, glazes. You can just add it on top as a condiment at the end. And it really is, it takes your cooking up a notch. It just makes everything taste amplified. It's like if you have a speaker, like a really good quality speaker. And you just put it on and the second you add MSG, the Bluetooth is activated and you just have poof in your kitchen. Just delicious.

SM:

I absolutely love it, and I said I've got lots of packs of it up there and I use it for everything.

Okay and let's talk I did a series on tomatoes and ketchup and all of these things a little while ago. So, let's talk about the history of mustard because Dijon mustard you mentioned and the Dijon mustard style which famously is from the region of Dijon in France. But it was actually made by the ancient Chinese 3,000 years ago. The mustard was so... Tell me about that and how, you know, the close sort of like the Dijon mustard from France is to whatever they were making in China, because I think that's really interesting.

CD:

Yeah, it is really interesting, you know. I think the best and worst part about history is that you learn more every day. So, while there is evidence of, you know, a Dijon style of mustard in China from 3000 years ago, it actually got to France by way of ancient Rome. And so around the same time, around like the 100 ADs, you do have contact between, you know, the ancient Roman Empire and China by way of like Marcus Aurelius. But at the same time, you do see in Apicius's first cookbook that they do use mustard seeds for certain things. So mustard was already around, you know, it's native to the Mediterranean. So, it's a plant that also grows very easily. So, while I can't give you an exact answer as to how that method, you know, went from China to France, there definitely was by way of ancient Rome. And in ancient Rome, you see mustard seeds used in medicine. You see it used in different recipes. And the word mustard actually comes from the Latin word mustem ardens which means burning must because its seeds were ground up and then mixed with unfermented grape juice which is very similar to Dijon mustard. So, it's all connected and again we're all the same despite where we live on this planet when it comes to flavor and condiments.

SM:

Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that. And I always talk about, well, we went earlier this year, no, gosh, last year, we went to the Stans, you know, Uzbekistan, all of those areas, which was absolutely fascinating. But we saw how the Silk Road comes together in Central Asia and then splits off towards here. That was fascinating to see how it moved across before the Columbian Exchange and all of that.

CD:

I’d love to see that.

SM:

It was amazing and we went to all of them including Turkmenistan, which is this place that is just nuts. Everything is white and everything is, which was fantastic. But I think this way of moving across the world and moving back on the Silk Roads was way before obviously the Columbian Exchange and anything like that. So, I think it's really important to kind of notice that it went both ways.

Okay, now, and I know we're going to have a, we're going to talk about this later, but you do have a section on butter and salt and you put those kind of together. Now, first of all, my kind of favorite or one of my favorite kind of condiments, and I don't think you kind of mention it too much in the book.

CD:

Oh no, I know it's coming.

SM:

Yeah, so where, where was the pepper? Now I use pepper a huge amount because you know it came from India and all those kind of things but or it well from around India anyway.

CD:

Right.

SM:

I mention this because I absolutely love pepper. So where was it?

CD:

Okay, so I have many explanations for this. I can't believe I'm going to admit this to the internet. I don't like pepper. And that, that actually, you know what? I like pepper. The issue here is that I'm a super taster. So, there are certain things that I taste that just completely overwhelm my taste buds. And if I have pepper, for example, on eggs at 8 a.m., at 8 p.m. for dinner, if I'm eating, I don't know, sushi, I will only taste pepper. So, for the entire day, even if it's just one peppercorn that I have randomly, because it's in a restaurant dish or something like that, and I don't realize, for the next 12 hours, that's all I can taste.

SM:

Wow.

CD:

So, it's not that I don't like that flavor, it's more so that then I can't taste anything else, which drives me crazy, because I love being able to taste different things. And so, to just taste pepper for 12 hours is a little upsetting.

SM:

Okay, well that's fine, I understand that. But why else?

CD:

But it's also pepper. I mean, this book was very hard to condense down to a smaller book, but pepper would be an encyclopedia. There's so much when it comes to pepper and pepper's history and the fact that, you know, a lot of people don't even know that like green pepper, white pepper, black pepper, they're all from the same plant. It's just a matter of, it young? Is it dried? Is the skin taken off? And it's just a really, really fascinating spice, frankly, and I've learned all about its history. I adore it. I think it's very interesting. It's just selfishly, I was like, there's too much information here. I don't, I'm not going to add it. Now, will it be in part of another book that I write one day? Probably, because I know that I should have added it. But one thing that I learned, I think in the past few years that I just found fascinating that I had no idea about until recently was the fact that pink peppercorns, aren't actually peppercorns, they're part of the cashew and the same family as like cashews and pistachios. So, it's if you ever have a friend who's allergic to nuts, never give them a pink peppercorn because it's not a peppercorn, it's a nut.

SM:

So now that we have the pink peppercorn, if nobody else listens to anything else, don't serve it to anyone who has nut allergy.

CD:

There you go.

SM:

What I love about pepper, when I talk about it, which like I said, we went to Zanzibar where they brought over the peppercorns after, I think that was after Columbian Exchange, yes it was. But anyway, they put it in Zanzibar. So, we went to see the peppercorns being fermented and all of that stuff and it was really fascinating to go and see it being done because they do they take the green peppercorns and they make them a black peppercorn then they make them a white peppercorn. I think is the right way. And they're really, it's fantastic to see it being made it really is and then I got a little thing of it to take away and it was and for me that is one of the greatest. . .  Because what I want to know is how do they get to that point as a producer? You know, who is sitting there at the very first and goes, how's that peppercorn or how's anything? To me, that's one of the stories, not just peppercorn, anything around the world. How do we try and get that condiment from that?

CD:

Yeah, and I think that's fascinating. And the fact that seasons play so much into it, that terroir, like where something is grown plays into it, what the soil is like. I just find that really fascinating. And the fact that every single peppercorn can taste different than its sister peppercorn and that so many of them, you know, some are milder, some are fruitier. I recently had, I don't know what the English word is, but it's be Timur, it's from Nepal. And that was very, very fruity. There's another one that a friend gifted me that looks like a peppercorn, but it has a little tail on it. It's Vodisperi.

SM:

I don’t know that.

CD:

Something like that from Madagascar. If you like fruity peppers, delicious. But I think in response to your question, it's really beautiful to see craftsmanship in different spices. And that's why they were so prized at the beginning as well, because not only were they flavorful, but they were unlike anything that people had ever tasted. And every time they tasted it, there might have been that slight difference. For example, you know, cinnamon from Sri Lanka versus it's just, it's fascinating. And to see that now pepper is on every single table except for mine. And, but that before it was a luxury ingredient really goes to show you that it couldn't have been in my book. It would have been the entire book. It just would have taken up too much space.

SM:

No, I understand and you know, I actually tell a story when I'm doing my demos of salt being something that they gave to the Legionnaires, know, a salary and hence the term and pepper being something that the Emperors kept and people are going but we have it now on a on a little thing on the counter, and I go they were the most expensive in those days. So, I get very excited about this. So, you as you can see, yeah.

CD:

Same.

SM:

Now this is why I'm so pleased to have you on because it's such a fascinating subject. And the other thing that I also love about that, you talk about you making butter and I've seen the things of you making butter and I love doing that. And I would say whenever I do it, I do it at dinner parties or I get the grandkids come up because if they mix it in a, what do call it, a whisker or the, you know, the KitchenAid or whatever it actually. . . they just get covered in this water and they love doing that. So, tell me why you like butter and I know we're going to talk about this later on but. . .

CD:

Yeah, I love butter. Butter is my preferred fat because there are different fats that people use around the world depending on where they're from, where their territory, like where the climate of their region. So, in France, you use a lot of butter. For example, in Italy, in Greece, it's a lot more olive oil. Ghee in India. I. . . butter household. I love butter because you can really tailor it to your preferences. I like a very salty butter. So. . .

SM:

Ooh.

CD:

Depending on what salt you add as well, you make it your own whether you're adding any flavorings whatsoever. So, vanilla, cinnamon, herbes de Provence, whatever you add to it. Even if you don't add anything, but you're just adding a salt that you like, you're still making it your own. So, I like a really big chunky gris sel, so like a gray salt from Rhé Island preferably. And so, if you get a great cream, it can be any cream. Honestly, it can be supermarket double cream or if you go I like going to my farmers market. I have a dairy guy, I like his cream a lot. So, to be able to churn your own butter, to see that process take place and then to be able to flavor it with things that are specifically yours that you know you really love is so satisfying. And again, for a dinner party, it's such a fun, it's such a fun side dish, condiment, whatever you want to call it. Because around Thanksgiving, for example, I had made, I mean around, around Halloween, I had made a pumpkin sourdough loaf that I colored with turmeric and ginger. So it was like a ginger, orangey loaf, but I did it in the shape of a pumpkin by putting little strings around it. And the butter that I made with it was a cinnamon vanilla butter. And it was so deliciously sweet in contrast to the gingery loaf. So anyways, I love making butter. I had a video a few weeks ago, it hit 35 million views, which I think is hilarious that that's what butter can get you nowadays.

SM:

It's amazing thing and I say when I get, I still get emails or a little card from some of the grandkids and they always go, I'm the family butter maker now and I love all that.

CD:

I love that for them. Great.

SM:

And the fact that they're making this in the kitchen aid or wherever they're deciding to do it, like you're doing it with a whisker or, I'm getting so... This is a great interview. I just want you to tell you this. It's fantastic.

CD:

Thank you.

SM:

Now, when you're talking about this in your book, you talk about a fascinating historical tidbit about the first ever student revolt in the US.

CD:

Yeah.

SM:

And it involves butter. I've never heard of this. So, this is a new one for me. I think that was great. So, tell us a bit about that.

CD:

Yes. So right before the American Revolution in 1766, this gentleman, I guess, student, so gentleman, child, who knows that age. His name was Asa Dunbar, and he was eating in the dining hall at Harvard University, and he was served rancid butter.

SM:

Ooh.

CD:

And he was like, how, how dare you serve us rancid butter? And he and all of his classmates got up and protested and all revolted in Harvard Yard and then they all ate out at restaurants as opposed to eating in the cafeteria for the next few weeks and that was the first ever student revolt. And a very fun fact about Asa Dunbar is that he was Henry David Thoreau's grandfather.

SM:

Oh wow. It's, it's, it's really interesting. Anyway. You also. . . . You mentioned that salt is a controversial condiment which I love but tell me why and tell some of the people obviously though we’ve got a lot of listeners and they're gonna go, controversial?

CD:

It’s controversial because people love to argue with me about the fact that salt is a condiment or is not a condiment. People also love to argue that butter is not a condiment. But here's the thing. There's condiment salt and there's regular salt and there's condiment butter, which I like to call butter butter. And then there's butter, which is just regular butter. Both of those can be used as ingredients in a recipe. So, for example, if you're making chocolate chip cookies, you're melting down butter. You're adding in some salt to the dough. They're not condiments when you're using them like that.

SM:

Yeah.

CD:

However, once the cookie is baked, if you decide you want to put some flaky salt on top, if you want to condire, enhance the flavor of it, add something that's completely unnecessary to it, but it's just going to take it up that one level, then you're adding your condiment salt, also called a finishing salt.

SM:

Yeah.

CD:

So, the table salt that you get, you know, if you're at a diner, that's not really a condiment. You don’t, eh. But if you're at home and you have a beautiful pink salt, or if you have, you know, a beautiful flaky salt, a fleur de sel, a Persian blue salt, a black Hawaiian lava salt, that is a condiment. So that's why it's controversial, mainly because people don't like to believe me when I say that salt is a condiment, and I really like to have this conversation with them.

SM:

I love this because one of my favorite salts is actually from France and forgive me if I do don't pronounce the name, but it's called Guérande?

CD:

Guérande, yeah.

SM:

And I, we used to stay close to there in La Baule and I loved, always love that marsh salt and it's wonderful. But I don't think of that putting in any dish as a mixture of that. I always think of that slightly because I always just put a tiny bit of it and it gives so much flavour. Well, that's got to be a condiment.

CD:

Yes, exactly.

SM:

Okay, fantastic. So, let's talk about jam because I love jams. I adore jams. Now you talk about the history of jam being tied to the history of sugar, which history I've also discussed on a prior episode of Eat My Globe. So how do you think fruit and sugar actually came together to form jam? Where does it occur from?

CD:

Well, jam is actually a colonial product if you think about it, because in the Roman Empire, there are recipes for, I guess we can call them jam adjacent condiments. So, with quince and honey, so a fruit and honey, that all mashed up. But again, that wasn't the sugar. And it wasn't until the Crusades that really sugar became readily available in the West because sugar was, is native to Southeast Asia. And so, once it came over to, let's say more Western territories, that's when they started getting added, the sugar started getting added to fruit. But because it was so special at the time and sugar wasn't readily available, people would create these spoon sweets, which are basically like little, it's exactly what it sounds. It's a spoonful of fruit and sugar, kind of like a confit fruit, a candied fruit. But because it was so, again, special, it was served in the, like... at the dining table when Louis XIV was entertaining. It wasn't something that was readily available. And so, it wasn't until sugar became more popular that people could really start making jams with X amount of sugar. So, that's sugar and fruits journey together.

SM:

I know. So, my next question then, and I've never thought about this, but would you ever use jams and jellies? Well, no, would you ever use jams on a savory dish? Where would you use them?

CD:

Always. Always.

SM:

Yes, and this is great. So, tell us, you know, I would love jam with a pork pie, actually. I love pork pies.

CD:

Delicious.

SM:

The Nottinghamshire pork pie that's cold and. . . .

CD:

That with a spiced plum jam would be so delicious.

SM:                                          

That's exactly what I have.

CD:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Even a, I know this sounds strange, but I'll even have a strawberry jam that I put a little salt on, and there you go. Two condiments coming together.

CD:

I love that. Strawberry jam I love with like eggs in the morning. Like even if you don't even have toast, just eggs and a little strawberry jam on the side that's sweet and salty. So delicious.

SM:

Ooh. Gosh, you've got me again. So how would you have them?

CD:

So, if I ever have a week at home where I'm taste I'm just developing a bunch of recipes I have so many jam jars in my fridge. I'll have friends over and the easiest go-to Jam get rid of dinner party is to make a giant roast chicken, bunch of roast vegetables and just to have a bunch of jams on the table. Because if you think about Thanksgiving turkey that you pair with cranberry sauce. Delicious. If you think about pork and applesauce. Pork chops and applesauce. Delicious. So the easiest intro, let's say, to pairing jams with a savory dish, I would say, is a roast chicken. Just like a really good, juicy, simple, lemony, maybe herby roast chicken. However, you can really, there are no rules in the condiment world. That's always what I like to say. And I recently made a ginger limeade jam as a fundraiser for the LA fires because ginger limeade was something that I always had growing up in LA. And so, I made this ginger limeade jam and I was like. . . .

SM:

I saw, I saw your Instagram, was it?

CD:

Yeah. It was.

SM:

I saw you doing it. Absolutely.

CD:

It was great and I really wanted to use it in a savory way but I wouldn't really have ginger lime made with poultry or pork or beef. It just sounded, huh. So, I'll get a great piece of white fish. So, I got some mahi mahi and I had mahi mahi with a little bit of ginger lime made jam on the side and you know had some bok choy and some whatever but it's always so nice to excite your taste buds whilst doing that. Yeah but otherwise you know a grilled cheese with quince jelly not even with Membrillo, but really with like a jelly. Delicious. If you think about, you know, any wrap or sandwich, put a little jam in there. Nice chunky blackberry jam. Or I love making a pear lemongrass jam. That's really delicious. With parrot jam and blue cheese, that's my favorite cheese and jam combo.

SM:

So that's a great thing because one of my favorite sandwiches is brown toasted bread, peanut butter, blue cheese, and either raspberry or strawberry jelly. And I put those together. And when I first mentioned this on The Next Iron Chef, which I was doing nearly 15 years ago now, and the three of us were the judges. And I started mentioning this when I was one of the judges and people were giving me the oddest looks and I go, when you taste this and so they all did all the different chefs and all the things tasted and they all came back and said that was fantastic.

CD:

Try it with pear jam. I'd be intrigued.

SM:

Ooh.

CD:

I would be worried that the peanut butter would overpower the pear, but I really believe that Roquefort and pear jam together are an absolute match made in heaven. There are few pairings that are like, oh no, that's... I know that if I'm ever having a dinner party and I have a bunch of cheese out, a bunch of jams out, because that's always how I like to end the evening, because everyone can mix and match, do their own thing, I will rarely, rarely, rarely... ever add anything else to my blue cheese other than pear jam because it is that good together that if I have another pairing, I regret not having the pear on there. So, try pear jam and blue cheese. . .

SM:

Ooh.

CD:

. . . and report back.

SM:

I actually usually use either Stilton or even a blue Cambozola. And the Stilton which has that salty taste is fantastic with raspberry and peanut butter but it's got to be crunchy peanut butter.

CD:

Always crunchy peanut butter.

SM:

Good, good.

CD:

I will say one last thing about the jams, which is so great, is that jams can also be used in cocktails, in glazes, in marinades, in salad dressing. So, if you ever finish a jar of jam and you have that empty jar with like the side bits still on the jam. . .

SM:

Yeah. Yeah.

CD:

. . . toss in some oil, some vinegar, make a salad dressing, toss in some vodka, some soda water, make a cocktail. Figure out what you're glazing your next. Never rinse a jar. That's my motto. Never ever, ever rinse.

SM:

That is a great idea. That is fantastic. And before we disappear from the jams and jelly, can you tell us and the people I hope what's the difference between a jam and a jelly because sometimes they don't get it?

CD:

So, a jam is made with chunks of fruit. So usually, you'll have texture in a jam. And a jelly is the exact same thing, but made with fruit juice.

SM:

Okay.

CD:

So it's completely wobbly. Sometimes it can be see-through. It's just the liquid that has solidified with pectin. And a jam is chunky, made with the chunks of fruit.

SM:

This is, oh. So I just want to explain to everyone listening at home, if you're hearing me making a lot of the yum noises, I actually am. And this is really because I love all of this and I just, I adore condiments.

Let's talk about the history of salad dressings because you've mentioned that, you've mentioned the oil and the vinegar going into the jam pot. What else kind of your, your far. . . or favorite dressings because I try and make these a lot. Usually though, I just make them with some Dijon and blah blah. Yeah.

CD:

Yeah, I'm very basic when it comes to my dressing. I really like just making a basic French vinaigrette. So, using some shallots, some red wine vinegar, some olive oil, some Dijon, that's usually my go-to. But I have really, for the past few years, been getting into my Caesar dressing, but not really out at restaurants. I like making my own Caesar dressing because I love anchovies. I love that saltiness. So, I like being able to play around with my own Caesar. So, I would say either like a good vinaigrette or a good Caesar.

SM:

Okay, and my thing about Caesar originally it didn't have any anchovies in it. It was originally Worcester sauce as we call. . .  Worcestershire sauce as we call it here.

CD:

I do heavier on the anchovy. I do add Worcestershire still but because there is that peppery element I don't put too much in there, but I do put Dijon I like to add in some caper brine sometimes a good, good parmesan. Can't go wrong with parmesan. And just an egg yolk. . . .

SM:

Parmesan it's important that you said that not the crunchy. . . the thing that you get in a packet that is very. . . ooh.

Okay, and I, I want to see what you do about this. So if you name your favorite number one, I'll name my number one, you name your number two, I'll do my number two. We'll go down so we have about 10 of them. And then let's see if we can just describe them in a kind of quick way. So why don't you name your number one?

CD:

My number one condiment is Dijon mustard because I can have it breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, and I easily go through a jar a week.

SM:

Oh wow.

CD:

And when I travel, when I travel or if I like go to the movie theater or anything like that, I have a mini jar of Dijon with me in my purse at all times.

SM:

Okay, well my favorite at the moment is the Filipino patis, which is. . . it's different from other patises around there and it's got a stronger flavor and I think you know again because chatting to my wife, who is Filipino, this is something that would be it's lovely and I've also got a bottle of it it with chili and I've got this in the back so that and so anyone who has a Filipino store, do go and buy it. You can buy a small bottle or a bigger bottle and this is something you can just splash on. You can add it into dishes but the patis is just the fish sauce is just oh. And they are different. It's like we'll, well we'll talk about soy sauce later on. They're all different. Okay.

CD:

Filipino condiments really quickly are incredible. I've only recently started dabbling and someone came to an event that I had done for my book launch at Fortnum and Mason's in London and she was Filipino and she brought me a jar of the shrimp paste.

SM:

Oh.

CD:

Oh my goodness. I finished a jar of that shrimp paste within two weeks because if I wanted a snack in the middle of the day, I would literally just throw a spoonful in my mouth. It was so delicious. That on rice? So good on silken tofu with scallions. So good. So amazing and everything. So, I know that's not part of the list. I'm so sorry if I'm off topic, but it's a new condiment that is now a staple in my fridge. And it is so flavorful, sweet, salty umami. Just it's so more-ish. It's delicious.

SM:

I will tell you now, and this isn't just because I'm married to one, Filipino food, I think, is some of the most fully flavored, beautiful, you know, all the different dishes, not just the lechon, which I'm bound to like anyway. . .

CD:

Always.

SM:

. . . because it's pork. it is just amazing. It is incredible. OK, let's, let's get it. Your number two is?

CD:

I'm gonna go rogue with this one and I'm gonna say bonito flakes because I think they're really fun. I was in Tokyo last year and I've always loved them. I always have a big pack of bonito flakes in my kitchen because again, love rice, love silken tofu, love fresh fish. But I love that they are also playful because when you put bonito flakes, which are basically dried fish that then you shave, when you put them on something hot, they kind of dance around your plate. So, I like that they're playful as well.

SM:

Yes they do. Okay well mine is Burmese Balachaung which I we have a Balachaung in India but it's very different. So, this is a recipe that I got. So, it's dried garlic, dried shrimp and dried I can't remember exactly what it is there. Mimi is the person who explained this to us when she was on our show. She is one of the great Burmese writers. Please go and look at them because her writings about Burmese food and I said she was on our show. So go and listen to that show. It's called M I M I A Y E. MiMi Aye.

CD:

Okay. Great.

SM:

Number three.

CD:

Number three.

SM:

This is one that I don't, even though I sometimes use it in my curries, I tend to use it very sparingly, but you obviously like it.

CD:

I use it every single day. It's like mustard. It's the one thing that I really do use every single day.

SM:

Oh, interesting.

CD:

So, this should have been number two maybe. Cinnamon. It's the American in me. I put cinnamon in everything. Less so as an ingredient. I don't cook with it off. Like I don't cook savory dishes with it. It's not an ingredient that I like to cook savory dishes with. But anytime I chop up fruit, I'll put cinnamon on it. I like to put cinnamon on top of my matcha if I'm making like smoothie, I like to put cinnamon in it. If I'm baking, I like to put cinnamon in it. If I'm making a yogurt cake I like to put cinnamon in it. I, if I'm making a yogurt bowl, chia seed pudding, toast with ricotta. Anything cinnamon. Love it.

SM:

Oh gosh. And as I say, that's not something that I. . . . I'll put a tiny bit in curries. Tiny. But that's all I can, oh. So. We, we're gonna go separate ways on that one.

CD:

That’s okay.

SM:

Mine? Croatian do so Ajvar, you know creation Ajvar so you tell us about it, but I just love it.

CD:

It's so, it's again, I'm very lucky that I have a following from around the world because when I do, do certain events, people like to bring me condiments from their culture and someone brought me Croatian Ayvar. Basically, this red, think of like a red pepper dip almost, but that has certain like chard notes and also certain spices. It's just, it's so delicious. I really like having it with cold feta. I don't know if it's the Mediterranean of it all, but cold feta and Ayvar, so delicious. How do you like to eat it?

SM:

Well, I love to have it with a what you call it, a borek. So, when that's hot and you dip it in there, I'm telling you, I'm just, oh, I still love that. And also, when it crosses over into other countries, Bosnia, all those areas, they all have slightly different types of that. And that's what I love as well, because they have something from an area, but they take it in slightly their own different ways.

CD:

Yeah, it's my mom's family is Greek. And so I'm very used to always having Greek dips on the table or in my fridge growing up. And in Greece, there's dip called Melitzanosalata, which is kind of an Ajvar, but instead of bell pepper, it's aubergine. So, it's that same kind of charred, grilled, then mashed dip. And so, it's eggplant with onion. And sometimes depending on your region in Greece, you can also add bell pepper to it. So again, it's that same slight variation to a dip, which is just, it's so fun.

SM:

Okay, your turn. And we're going to get back to something you mentioned earlier. So, this is great because you obviously love it.

CD:

Salted butter. It's just a staple. It's a staple. It has to go on there. It's boring, but it can do no wrong.

SM:

I'm gonna have Bengali Kasundi which is with mustard. We used to get it in a jar.

Okay, you're going to name something that you call it... Well, I won't tell you, but it goes off in different areas, doesn't it? Each country has a very different of this sauce. And so, you perhaps name that and then I'll name my favourite.

CD:

Yeah, I love a soy sauce. I love a soy sauce. I think that it's... it brings that umami flavor to every dish. And regardless of what cuisine you're cooking, you know, whether you're cooking a very traditional French dish or a Greek dish or a Japanese dish, obviously you can use soy sauce and it just amplifies... it amplifies it all. It's like that MSG we were talking before. It gives everything a rich kind of sweet really salty flavor. I love putting soy sauce on my vanilla ice cream. That's my go-to condiment for ice cream. I love putting soy sauce on my eggs. I love putting soy sauce with some maple syrup before putting it on pancakes or waffles or anything like that. So, I just think it's all together a really special condiment.

SM:

Do you think that some of the soy sauces from different countries, again, I'll mention the Filipino has a soy sauce, but it's very different. . .

CD:

Very different.

SM:

. . . to Japanese or very different to China or very different to Vietnam even has the soy sauces. And so, I think what do you think makes them so different?

CD:

Well, there's light soy and there's dark soy, which both have different textures, different levels of richness and pungency. Now you have the low sodium soy sauces. When I was in Japan last year, I actually picked up two soy sauces that are completely clear. So, they look like water, but they're soy sauce. And I think the method in which they're produced, where they're left to ferment, how long they're left to ferment, it all can change the flavor of the soy sauce so drastically. And, I'm partial to Japanese soy only because that's the one that I used growing up and that's the one that I always had readily available. But I know a lot of my friends here in London use Chinese soy sauce. And it's so interesting when you go to their house and you you dip something in soy sauce and you're like, this really tastes so different than the soy sauce I use every day in my kitchen. So, it's fascinating to see the differences.

SM:

And my final one is XO sauce. So, for people who don't know that they use this in Hong Kong. That's where it's created. And they called it XO because it was named after a brandy which people used to drink during the meal. So, they kind of. . . the chef called it XO. And this is again I think it just has that unique taste with dried shrimp and all these flavors in it. Okay, now let's go into some fun questions and then we'll let you...

CD:

This has been so fun already, but okay.

SM:

But okay if Claire was a meal, what would it be?

CD:

I really think I'm gonna have to say steak tartare. And at first I thought I was saying that because it's my favorite dish. But when I think about what steak tartare is, the fact that it's just a mishmash of all these really tangy, salty condiments, that's... it's just me. To have some capers in there, a ton of Dijon mustard, some Worcestershire sauce, it just... it's... it's just a flavor bomb and I love it.

SM:

Oh.

CD:

So. Yeah.

SM:

That's a fantastic answer. If Claire had to go back in time to any meal, where would that be?

CD:

I'm gonna say an ancient Roman table because I had a book growing up, a coffee table book in my home that was around the ancient Roman table. And so, from a very young age, I learned about ancient Rome and I loved, I just loved ancient Roman history and the TV show Rome. And I just have always been fascinated with ancient Rome. And I also love quince. And in ancient Rome, they ate a lot of quince. And so the idea that I would be able to travel back to ancient Rome and eat quince was always a dream of mine. Now, I love the fact that they had banquets for like 24, 48 hours. Now we don't need to go into the vomitorium rooms to deal with that. But I think it would be really fascinating to see. However, I would like to be upper class because I would love to also eat the figs and the grapes. And that was not for just anyone. That was only the rich could have the nice fruit. So, I would like to be a rich person around an ancient Roman table. That's my...

SM:

That's a great one. If Claire had to go back in time to see the invention of anything, what would it be?

CD:

So, something I've been fascinated by ever since I was little is glass. Like glass in like a window. I think the first person to create glass is a genius. Imagine that it just still blows my mind that glass is completely see-through. Just going, being able to experience a shift of living in a home where everything is candlelit, where there's no light, to then being able to have glass where you can't have wind come in, you can't have rain come in, but you're still able to see the outside world, I think is fascinating. And the fact that then that translates also to like glassware and you know, drinking water out of a cup that you can see through. It just is it's something to me that's so simple. But I just cannot imagine living through that shift of not having glass to then having glass and being able to see through something that's physically solid.

SM:

Oh fantastic, that's a great answer. And then finally, before we let you go, what are your social media sites?

CD:

I am Condiment Claire everywhere. It keeps it very simple. So I'm primarily on TikTok, which is where I film videos about, you know, whether it's easy recipes or when I travel, I post a lot of content there as well, just experiencing different flavors from around the world. I write a weekly newsletter on Substack, also called Condiment Claire, which that is probably my preferred form of social media because I get to deep dive on food histories, be able to share recipes very specifically, being able to talk about different traditions going on that week around the world. It's just something that I find fascinating. I send out my city guides there as well. So, if you're ever traveling, I have my guide to all the cities that I go to, to be able to experience them authentically, not just like best restaurants here, but more so what are the dishes you should taste if you're in this place or that place, just to really experience it.

SM:

That’s fantastic.

CD:

And then I'm also on Instagram.

SM:

Which I've followed as well and that is really fun as well.

CD:

Thank you.

SM:

So, Claire, I have to tell you that this is, it is one of the best. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a great interview. So, thank you very much.

CD:

I mean, thank you so much for having me.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

And, if you like what you hear, please don’t forget to join us on Patreon, subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends and give us a good rating on your favorite podcast provider.

Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

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We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.